J
JReducation
Guest
It’s easy. I look at my brother and his wife.I LOL’ed.
Brother, how do you conjure the strength to ignore the temptations?
-MontChevalier
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
- Status
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
MontChevalier
Guest
R
Ruth_Catherine
Guest
:yup: Exactly. God wants us to obey because he wants and knows what is best for us. Just like a parent and a child.Christ taught us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. St. Paul directs us to conform ourselves to Christ who was obedient even unto death. St. John calls us to abide in His love. Obedience is a way of loving.
If we look at the scriptures we see how God calls us to obey from the moment that he breathes life into man. He gives Adam a command. We see him ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. He sends Moses with a message to Pharaoh commanding him to obey, “Let my people go.” It’s not a request. It’s an order. When Pharaoh fails to comply, he suffers the consequences.
On Mt. Sinai, God again imposes his authority and calls man to obedience. He delivers the 10 Commandments to his people. They require submission, not deliberation, consultation or analysis.
We see in the New Testament some very interesting examples of obedience. Luke tells us how Mary says to the Angel, “Be it done to me according to your word.” We see how Zacharia is punished for his disbelief by being made mute until the birth of his son, John. And it is only when Zachary obeys God’s command and writes on the tablet, “His name is John,” that he recovers his voice. We see Christ saying to the disciples, “He who hears you hears me.” and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.” These are all statements about obedience.
Christ himself says to the Father, “Not my will be done, but your will.” He submits to a bogus trial and accepts an unjust death sentence out of pure obedience. But this life of obedience is grounded in love. It is easy to say that I love God, but love is proven by fidelity to the Beloved. When the Beloved commands, the faithful man obeys.
This obedience is not without a plan or rewards. God calls us to obey in order to restore the world to its original state of innocence. The restoration to innocence is in itself the reward for a loving obedience.
As I said above, obedience is a challenge, but it is not a hardship when one loves. John tells us about Jesus, “He loved them to the end.” This is the life that we aspire to live, one where we love God and his people to the very end. That’s why men like Francis, Benedict, Pio, Maximilian Kolbe and other are such great role models for us.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
A
AngryAtheist8
Guest
‘No one can command you to sin’ is a meaningless distinction when you are working for superiors who claim the right to define what is and is not a sin.Tell me about it. People often ask me how I can live without sex and wife. I always say that it’s easy. It’s one less person giving me orders.
Of the three vows: obedience. poverty and chastity, obedience is the most challenging, because it challenges us at the level of Original Sin. It calls on us to return to the innocence of Adam before the fall.
I think that you’re missing two important points.
**
On another note, this is not an ideology that I’m advocating. This is a way of life that Christ taught us and that the Apostles taught their disciples and all the way down the line to this day. Christ taught us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. St. Paul directs us to conform ourselves to Christ who was obedient even unto death. St. John calls us to abide in His love. Obedience is a way of loving.
- No one can command you to sin. You obey in all things, but sin.**
- All of the examples that you have sited above are sins. Therefore, no one is obliged to comply with such requests.
If we look at the scriptures we see how God calls us to obey from the moment that he breathes life into man. He gives Adam a command. We see him ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. He sends Moses with a message to Pharaoh commanding him to obey, “Let my people go.” It’s not a request. It’s an order. When Pharaoh fails to comply, he suffers the consequences.
On Mt. Sinai, God again imposes his authority and calls man to obedience. He delivers the 10 Commandments to his people. They require submission, not deliberation, consultation or analysis.
We see in the New Testament some very interesting examples of obedience. Luke tells us how Mary says to the Angel, “Be it done to me according to your word.” We see how Zacharia is punished for his disbelief by being made mute until the birth of his son, John. And it is only when Zachary obeys God’s command and writes on the tablet, “His name is John,” that he recovers his voice. We see Christ saying to the disciples, “He who hears you hears me.” and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.” These are all statements about obedience.
Christ himself says to the Father, “Not my will be done, but your will.” He submits to a bogus trial and accepts an unjust death sentence out of pure obedience. But this life of obedience is grounded in love. It is easy to say that I love God, but love is proven by fidelity to the Beloved. When the Beloved commands, the faithful man obeys.
This obedience is not without a plan or rewards. God calls us to obey in order to restore the world to its original state of innocence. The restoration to innocence is in itself the reward for a loving obedience.
As I said above, obedience is a challenge, but it is not a hardship when one loves. John tells us about Jesus, “He loved them to the end.” This is the life that we aspire to live, one where we love God and his people to the very end. That’s why men like Francis, Benedict, Pio, Maximilian Kolbe and other are such great role models for us.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Moreover, of course your system of beliefs is an ideology.
That’s what an ideology is
Its also worth noting that you yourself admit that you are not supposed to debate whether or not the actions required of you by God or his representatives are moral. Your are supposed to simply obey.
J
JReducation
Guest
This is not a claim based on a whim. It is revealed truth based on Christ’s words. “Whaterver you bind shall be bound and whatever you unbind shall be unbound.”
Yes, the Church has been given the authority to define what is and is not sin. These definitions must be consistent with scripture and Sacred Tradition. God is a god of order, not a god of chaos. It stands to reason that he would established and guide a structured moral authority.
No. I would certainly not call revelation an ideology unless you want to say that God is an idealist.Moreover, of course your system of beliefs is an ideology.
That’s what an ideology is
The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the Father of Jesus Christ is not some idealist. Look at the scriptures and the Judeo-Christian tradition and you won’t see a god who is an idealist. You 'll see a God who makes himself known and his commands understood. You’ll see a God who calls the world to order and who establishes a people to lead the world to the fulfillment of that order. Ideologies are grounded in the thoughts and teachings of idealists. If you want to say that God is an idealist, then you’ll have to prove that.
Why would I want to question whether God’s commands are moral? That’s not logical. As to the commands of my superior, I know the moral code. All I have to do is listen and I know wether I’m being asked to do something that is within the moral codes or that trespasses it. If it trespasses the moral code, I’m not bound to comply. If it’s within the moral code, I have no need to ask any further questions. Obedience, as Christ practiced it, without murmuring, without complainig, without resentment, and without resistance is the goal of every human being who calls himself Christian.
Allow me to ask you a question. Why are you here? What are you looking for?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
MontChevalier
Guest
Brother,This is not a claim based on a whim. It is revealed truth based on Christ’s words. “Whaterver you bind shall be bound and whatever you unbind shall be unbound.”
Yes, the Church has been given the authority to define what is and is not sin. These definitions must be consistent with scripture and Sacred Tradition. God is a god of order, not a god of chaos. It stands to reason that he would established and guide a structured moral authority.
No. I would certainly not call revelation an ideology unless you want to say that God is an idealist.
The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the Father of Jesus Christ is not some idealist. Look at the scriptures and the Judeo-Christian tradition and you won’t see a god who is an idealist. You 'll see a God who makes himself known and his commands understood. You’ll see a God who calls the world to order and who establishes a people to lead the world to the fulfillment of that order. Ideologies are grounded in the thoughts and teachings of idealists. If you want to say that God is an idealist, then you’ll have to prove that.
Why would I want to question whether God’s commands are moral? That’s not logical. As to the commands of my superior, I know the moral code. All I have to do is listen and I know wether I’m being asked to do something that is within the moral codes or that trespasses it. If it trespasses the moral code, I’m not bound to comply. If it’s within the moral code, I have no need to ask any further questions. Obedience, as Christ practiced it, without murmuring, without complainig, without resentment, and without resistance is the goal of every human being who calls himself Christian.
Allow me to ask you a question. Why are you here? What are you looking for?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I have a question for you:
Do you think we should change the Bible to accommodate with today’s social standards? (For example: To allow female priests, homosexual marriage and abortion)
-MontChevalier
P
ProVobis
Guest
You mean a translation of the Bible, don’t you? I think only God can change THE Bible.
J
JReducation
Guest
First of all, from a literary standpoint, this would be very difficult to do, because none of these things are stated as permissible in the texts that we have. Even if the Bible were not the revealed word of God, we still have a duty to academic honesty. You have to translated what the thing says, not what you want it to say. You can do what is called a dynamic translation, which is to convey the meaning without using the actual wording. But the meaning and message would not change. It’s like Shakespeare. Most of the readings that we do today are not the actual words of William Shakespeare. They’re dynamic translations. The the sonnets and plays remain the same. You can see the edition that you would read in school, which would be a dynamic translation and then see it on stage as it was written and you would still recognize it.
The same would hold true for the bible. You can translate to convey meaning and message or you can translate very literally, which sometimes makes meaning more difficult because very literal translations tend to be clunky at best. But if you change meaning and message, then it’s not a translation, dynamic or literal. It’s a different work.
Therefore, you cannot change the meaning and message of the biblical books any more than you can do it to Shakespeare and still call it the same thing.
A rose by any other name is still a rose, but no matter how many flowers you call a rose, are roses just because you say so.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
- Status