Realizing you committed a grave sin after the fact?

[seeker_of_God]

Hi,

I want to be as general as possible here.

Let’s say I commit a sin that is grave matter. I know it is grave matter, and had full consent, but didn’t think about what I was doing at the time. Let’s say I don’t realize until later in the day what I had actually done was a mortal sin, and then I feel horrible about it. If I had thought about it being a mortal sin before committing it, I certainly wouldn’t have done so. My conscience just didn’t set off that alert until much after the fact.

So if it is grave matter, was it mortal?

 

[quiet52]

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

#1857: For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

#1860: Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

#1862: One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

 

[Pug]

Okay, so say you are an obsessive artist in the middle of a painting. You see you are running out of red paint. You think to yourself, blood is red, so you grab a sharp palette knife and sever your own arm. It doesn’t hurt much, even. Then you continue painting, using the bloody stump to daub marks on the painting. As you start to feel faint, you realize that will interfere with your painting activity, so you bind up your stump to staunch the bleeding. Then you continue your painting, as you are done with the red area anyway. A few hours later you stop and glance at your painting supplies and notice your discarded arm. You exclaim, “What have I done!”

Although you saw a problem, reasoned up a solution, and followed it, I don’t think you met the burden of sufficient reflection. You did follow a course of action requiring you to cut off your arm, and in your youth you had learned that serious mutilation was grave matter, and normally you are very attentive to grave matter, but you did not deliberate upon your action. You do not have to think in detail about the loss of heaven, the pains of hell, and the horrors of offending God, but I do think you have to escape the ineluctable stampede of necessity of action into a reasonable moment of reflection in the moral arena.

If, however, prior to starting that painting you had given yourself carte blanche (a blank cheque so to speak) to complete it on time, knowing that could entail some undisclosed amount of whatever, then I am not so sympathetic.

I’m not sure if my scenario meets your specification of “full consent”. It surely meets your specification of “didn’t think about what I was doing”. I find it hard to reconcile those two specifications. It depends on what you mean. Your description sounds more like you realized after the fact that what you had done was sinful. I’m assuming you did not tell yourself “So what, I’m too lazy to think about it” beforehand. That would be a case of refusing to deliberate, which is bad news. There is no escape clause allowing you to avoid thinking about things that you know you ought to think about, thus allowing you to get away with murder through “lack of forethought”.

 

[seeker_of_God]

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

#1857: For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

#1860: Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

#1862: One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

I appreciate your post, but I already know what the Catechism says on the issue. But that doesn’t really answer this particular situation.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Okay, so say you are an obsessive artist in the middle of a painting. You see you are running out of red paint. You think to yourself, blood is red, so you grab a sharp palette knife and sever your own arm. It doesn’t hurt much, even. Then you continue painting, using the bloody stump to daub marks on the painting. As you start to feel faint, you realize that will interfere with your painting activity, so you bind up your stump to staunch the bleeding. Then you continue your painting, as you are done with the red area anyway. A few hours later you stop and glance at your painting supplies and notice your discarded arm. You exclaim, “What have I done!”

Although you saw a problem, reasoned up a solution, and followed it, I don’t think you met the burden of sufficient reflection. You did follow a course of action requiring you to cut off your arm, and in your youth you had learned that serious mutilation was grave matter, and normally you are very attentive to grave matter, but you did not deliberate upon your action. You do not have to think in detail about the loss of heaven, the pains of hell, and the horrors of offending God, but I do think you have to escape the ineluctable stampede of necessity of action into a reasonable moment of reflection in the moral arena.

If, however, prior to starting that painting you had given yourself carte blanche (a blank cheque so to speak) to complete it on time, knowing that could entail some undisclosed amount of whatever, then I am not so sympathetic.

I’m not sure if my scenario meets your specification of “full consent”. It surely meets your specification of “didn’t think about what I was doing”. I find it hard to reconcile those two specifications. It depends on what you mean. Your description sounds more like you realized after the fact that what you had done was sinful. I’m assuming you did not tell yourself “So what, I’m too lazy to think about it” beforehand. That would be a case of refusing to deliberate, which is bad news. There is no escape clause allowing you to avoid thinking about things that you know you ought to think about, thus allowing you to get away with murder through “lack of forethought”.

Well, no, I felt horrible once I had realized what I had done.

OK here’s an example. Let’s say you’re talking to someone you are really close to, and you tell them about someone you’ve just met recently. Part of that includes some negative aspects of that person, but you hadn’t even stopped to think that it would be considered gossip. You were so caught up in the conversation though that you didn’t even think about that.

But later on, when you were doing an examination of conscience, you realize what you had done was indeed gossip. How culpable would you be then? Would it be mortal?

 

[Elizabeth502]

^ Carelessness is an aspect of culpability when it comes to sin. However, the matter or degree is also important. If I don’t guard my words and say something mildly critical (“she talks to much,” “his grooming isn’t so hot”), that’s one thing. If I say (“I hear he sleeps around on his wife,” or “I know for a fact that she got fired from her last job”), those are severely injurious to the person’s reputation, and could be calumny/slander/detraction, depending in the various cases whether the gossip was accurate or inaccurate – it still seriously & possibly irreparably harmed the person’s reputation.

Personally, I would consider carelessly spoken words that are lightly injurious to be venial – and also because in the ‘light’ cases above, the evidence will speak for itself; they are not claims against character. I would consider carelessly spoken character defamation always serious (mortal).

 

[Elizabeth502]

^ just adding to my post:

I’ve had a few situations where a friend or associate, having spoken carelessly, has called me and backtracked on their words, such as “I realized I could have been wrong about what I said, that’s only rumor, so please do not repeat it.” I’ve always thanked the person & naturally honored the request. (However, I would anyway, without that request: I would never repeat just a rumor about someone, because that is not something I’m ever inclined to do.)

If the associate knows that I am the only one she spoke to about it, and also trusts that I have repeated it to no one, that associate has repaired some of the harm. (Of course, possibly I could have lingering doubts about the character of the person spoken about, so at the very least the harm would decrease.) As the person spreading the initial rumor, though, if I were that person I would consider the action mortal.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Elizabeth502,

Thanks. I’m still confused though. i don’t really know how serious it was. I do know what I said is true.

I don’t know what my intentions were. I mean the person I was speaking to will most likely never meet the person I was talking about, as the person in question lives a few states away. But the person I was talking to, I tend to tell them everything that happens with me, so it was to me just light conversation, and I hadn’t thought about what I was doing.

You say carelessness is a factor in culpability. Do you mean a negative factor, increasing culpability?

What is most important to me right now is, was this mortal? I know now that it was a sin, but it’d make it so much worse if it indeed was mortal. I was just to confession two days ago. I’ve been trying to watch what I say and think so much to avoid mortal sin, and I’d feel horrible if I slipped up on this.

 

[pyro_alchemist]

Elizabeth502,

Thanks. I’m still confused though. i don’t really know how serious it was.

Go to confession. Confess the sin and don’t worry if it is mortal or not. Leave that up to God. He will forgive you regardless. Then move on. Dwelling on it after it has been confessed is a minor sin itself and can lead to the serious sin of despair. Trust in God and be at piece with yourself.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Go to confession. Confess the sin and don’t worry if it is mortal or not. Leave that up to God. He will forgive you regardless. Then move on. Dwelling on it after it has been confessed is a minor sin itself and can lead to the serious sin of despair. Trust in God and be at piece with yourself.

Thanks. I’m not sure how soon I can get to confession though, which is why I was worried if it was mortal. It probably won’t be till later next week.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks. I’m not sure how soon I can get to confession though, which is why I was worried if it was mortal. It probably won’t be till later next week.

I presume you’re going to Mass this weekend? Call the priest and make an appointment for before or after mass so that he can hear your confession sooner.

In the meantime say an Act of Perfect Contrition (resolving to go to confession as soon as you can) - and try not to worry.

 

[seeker_of_God]

I presume you’re going to Mass this weekend? Call the priest and make an appointment for before or after mass so that he can hear your confession sooner.

In the meantime say an Act of Perfect Contrition (resolving to go to confession as soon as you can) - and try not to worry.

Hi,

Thanks. Will the priest mind if it’s just been a few days since my last confession though? I don’t want him thinking I’m over-scrupulous.

But for future reference, no one can really tell me whether this is likely to have been venial or mortal?

 

[LilyM]

Hi,

Thanks. Will the priest mind if it’s just been a few days since my last confession though? I don’t want him thinking I’m over-scrupulous.

But for future reference, no one can really tell me whether this is likely to have been venial or mortal?

In such a situation I’d remind the priest that both Mother Teresa and John Paul 2 went more than once a week and no-one ever said THEY were scrupulous!

About the second question, it’s impossible to give an accurate answer without knowing the circumstances and the type of sin.

So let’s get this straight - you knew that xyz (let’s say robbing a bank) was grave matter. And somehow - without realising it - you robbed a bank and it didn’t occur to you until later that you’d actually done a bank robbery?

What happened at the time that you weren’t thinking about what you were doing? Were you asleep or just not paying attention to what you were doing or what? Most mortal sins are pretty obvious - if you murder or steal or lie you’re going to be aware of it, no? Are you a recent convert, for example, and the sin something like the obligation to attend Sunday Mass that wouldn’t be hardwired into you for that reason?

 

[seeker_of_God]

In such a situation I’d remind the priest that both Mother Teresa and John Paul 2 went more than once a week and no-one ever said THEY were scrupulous!

Thanks. I’m new to confession so still getting used to this. I’ve been trying to be very careful not to commit any serious
sin, so it makes me upset when something like this happens.

About the second question, it’s impossible to give an accurate answer without knowing the circumstances and the type of sin.

So let’s get this straight - you knew that xyz (let’s say robbing a bank) was grave matter. And somehow - without realising it - you robbed a bank and it didn’t occur to you until later that you’d actually done a bank robbery?

What happened at the time that you weren’t thinking about what you were doing? Were you asleep or just not paying attention to what you were doing or what? Most mortal sins are pretty obvious - if you murder or steal or lie you’re going to be aware of it, no? Are you a recent convert, for example, and the sin something like the obligation to attend Sunday Mass that wouldn’t be hardwired into you for that reason?

OK, I’ll give specifics. It was the sin of detraction though, I’m pretty sure. I’m not sure if I knew such as a grave sin before doing it, because I think I knew it could be serious, but perhaps didn’t know when it was grave and when it was not.

Let’s say I know a person x, that lives two states away. I just started talking to this person recently.

Well, I tell my mom everything that’s going on in my life generally, and we were in the car for a long time, driving back from Ohio. So I had told her about person x, because I thought person x was interesting.

However, while I was talking, I said some things that cast person x in a bit of a negative light. Not horrible, just some things I had noticed through talking to person X.

I wasn’t thinking to myself, “this is gossip” before I started talking. I was just caught up in the conversation and wasn’t thinking what I was saying I guess.

Then that night, I did an examination of conscience, and started to realize that was probably considered gossip. I started searching around here to make sure that was a grave sin, and then whether it would be mortal if one didn’t think of what they were doing before saying it. that’s why I posted this thread.

It really crushes me when I’m not in a state of grace, so that’s why I am so worried. Of course I will confess it, but if it’s mortal I’m going to obviously confess it a lot sooner if at all possible. I hadn’t planned on going to confession for at least a week after my last one, which was two days ago.

Again I’ve been watching what I’ve done, said, and thought very closely so that i could at least avoid grave or more serious sin. If I had thought at the time that this was a grave sin, I most certainly would not have said anything.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks. I’m new to confession so still getting used to this. I’ve been trying to be very careful not to commit any serious
sin, so it makes me upset when something like this happens.

Aah, sounds like you’ve got the good ol’ Catholic guilt thing down already

Please don’t let it get you down - Peter says in his epistle that even the just man falls seven times a day - and so we all do into venial sin.

But note that he doesn’t automatically become unjust from those seven falls, does he? A true saint isn’t someone who never falls, they’re just someone who gets up again and tries to do better every single time.

OK, I’ll give specifics. It was the sin of detraction though, I’m pretty sure. I’m not sure if I knew such as a grave sin before doing it, because I think I knew it could be serious, but perhaps didn’t know when it was grave and when it was not.

Let’s say I know a person x, that lives two states away. I just started talking to this person recently.

Well, I tell my mom everything that’s going on in my life generally, and we were in the car for a long time, driving back from Ohio. So I had told her about person x, because I thought person x was interesting.

However, while I was talking, I said some things that cast person x in a bit of a negative light. Not horrible, just some things I had noticed through talking to person X.

I wasn’t thinking to myself, “this is gossip” before I started talking. I was just caught up in the conversation and wasn’t thinking what I was saying I guess.

Then that night, I did an examination of conscience, and started to realize that was probably considered gossip. I started searching around here to make sure that was a grave sin, and then whether it would be mortal if one didn’t think of what they were doing before saying it. that’s why I posted this thread.

It really crushes me when I’m not in a state of grace, so that’s why I am so worried. Of course I will confess it, but if it’s mortal I’m going to obviously confess it a lot sooner if at all possible. I hadn’t planned on going to confession for at least a week after my last one, which was two days ago.

Again I’ve been watching what I’ve done, said, and thought very closely so that i could at least avoid grave or more serious sin. If I had thought at the time that this was a grave sin, I most certainly would not have said anything.

As you say, IF you’d known it was grave matter you wouldn’t have said anything. Sounds like a textbook example of lacking full knowledge to me, so be at peace. I don’t think you need to worry about going to confession for that one.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Aah, sounds like you’ve got the good ol’ Catholic guilt thing down already

Please don’t let it get you down - Peter says in his epistle that even the just man falls seven times a day - and so we all do into venial sin.

But note that he doesn’t automatically become unjust from those seven falls, does he? A true saint isn’t someone who never falls, they’re just someone who gets up again and tries to do better every single time.

As you say, IF you’d known it was grave matter you wouldn’t have said anything. Sounds like a textbook example of lacking full knowledge to me, so be at peace. I don’t think you need to worry about going to confession for that one.

Thanks! That is very encouraging, especially about saints just getting up and doing better.

Thank you very much for explaining it. I’m still trying to figure all of this out.

 

[Pug]

Well, no, I felt horrible once I had realized what I had done.

OK here’s an example. Let’s say you’re talking to someone you are really close to, and you tell them about someone you’ve just met recently. Part of that includes some negative aspects of that person, but you hadn’t even stopped to think that it would be considered gossip. You were so caught up in the conversation though that you didn’t even think about that.

But later on, when you were doing an examination of conscience, you realize what you had done was indeed gossip. How culpable would you be then? Would it be mortal?

I think it takes time to learn what is what when speaking to others. Give yourself time to learn (but hold yourself accountable, meanwhile, of course). For example, I was so used to telling my mother the scoop when I came home from school that it took me awhile to distinguish that it was okay to stop, and that I was not required to tell her everything. It took me time to learn what was sharable and what wasn’t. I still don’t get that sort of thing right always. I had to develop a new set of habits surrounding telling her things. I had to learn how to do it naturally, and not end up with bizarre pauses where I said, uh, I can’t tell you about that. My husband and I don’t even share all things on account of us knowing facts about other people that are not really ours to share. But if it relates to living my life, I share it. If all I ever said to any of my friends was, “Oh work went fine yesterday,” they would never know a thing about my life. They would not see me grow and change. Like I said, I’m still learning how to do this myself.

Remember, it is okay to tell a therapist about what is going on in your life, things like that, even if it makes your spouse or whomever look bad. If a woman is being abused, she must be able to tell someone and get help. Not everything is gossip, even if it might reveal to some person some negative information about a third party. Meaningful, just communication is not gossip. And it doesn’t have to be as dire as spousal abuse to confide in someone about it.

From what you have said, it sounds very unlikely to have been mortal. Of course, you are always encouraged to tell venial sins in confession, so that you can receive grace and counsel and grow more. Pray especially for the virtue of prudence, which helps you know what to do in each situation. Set up some new mental rules for yourself about what you will share in conversation and what you won’t.

Remember, we don’t just fall into mortal sin. It is not an invisible trap (like a tiger pit trap or something) that we unknowingly fall into to our deaths. That is just it, is has to be seen and perceived first to count as mortal sin. Yes, if we knowingly and willfully bury our heads in the sand and walk around, then we can fall into the trap, but your example is not about that. You did not do that. :console:

 

[seeker_of_God]

I think it takes time to learn what is what when speaking to others. Give yourself time to learn (but hold yourself accountable, meanwhile, of course). For example, I was so used to telling my mother the scoop when I came home from school that it took me awhile to distinguish that it was okay to stop, and that I was not required to tell her everything. It took me time to learn what was sharable and what wasn’t. I still don’t get that sort of thing right always. I had to develop a new set of habits surrounding telling her things. I had to learn how to do it naturally, and not end up with bizarre pauses where I said, uh, I can’t tell you about that. My husband and I don’t even share all things on account of us knowing facts about other people that are not really ours to share. But if it relates to living my life, I share it. If all I ever said to any of my friends was, “Oh work went fine yesterday,” they would never know a thing about my life. They would not see me grow and change. Like I said, I’m still learning how to do this myself.

Remember, it is okay to tell a therapist about what is going on in your life, things like that, even if it makes your spouse or whomever look bad. If a woman is being abused, she must be able to tell someone and get help. Not everything is gossip, even if it might reveal to some person some negative information about a third party. Meaningful, just communication is not gossip. And it doesn’t have to be as dire as spousal abuse to confide in someone about it.

From what you have said, it sounds very unlikely to have been mortal. Of course, you are always encouraged to tell venial sins in confession, so that you can receive grace and counsel and grow more. Pray especially for the virtue of prudence, which helps you know what to do in each situation. Set up some new mental rules for yourself about what you will share in conversation and what you won’t.

Remember, we don’t just fall into mortal sin. It is not an invisible trap (like a tiger pit trap or something) that we unknowingly fall into to our deaths. That is just it, is has to be seen and perceived first to count as mortal sin. Yes, if we knowingly and willfully bury our heads in the sand and walk around, then we can fall into the trap, but your example is not about that. You did not do that. :console:

Thanks! That helps a lot.

Yeah it is hard to know what to share and what not to. My mom and I have such a close relationship, and we often share just about everything with each other. I did so even more when I moved away to college, since she wasn’t there to see everything new that was going on in my life.

Thanks for your encouragement. This consciousness about sin is very new to me. I’ve only been to confession twice now, but now that I have, I have such a desire to stay in a state of grace. I mean of course before that I wanted to avoid sin, but if I would do something I guess I’d just add it to the list of things I needed to confess in my first confession. But now that I have gone to confession and thank God, am in a state of grace, well I am trying to avoid sin like the plague.

It is a struggle, though, and I’m still trying to figure out what is sin and how serious certain sins are.

Your analogy of a tiger pit trap made me laugh.