REALLY need help with this

[theRocco]

Hello folks…

I’m really struggling with a particular issue right now that’s very dear to my wife’s heart and as such effects me too. This issue I’m struggling with is the purchasing and consumption of fast food meats and meats which are offered at any typical trendy restaurant. To my knowledge, the entire fast food industry and other restaurant’s are kept alive by the factory farming industry. That said, I’ve seen various media depicting the deplorable conditions which animals are kept in and how they are treated at these facilities. Furthermore, our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI wrote about this very issue in a book titled “God and the World: A Conversation with Peter Seewald” (Ignatious Press, 2002, Pgs 78-79). In this book Pope Benedict speaks about factory farming how the techniques employed at these facilities are in direct violation of the biblical directive to treat animals with respect.

Have said all of the above the bottom line obvious question I have is: Is it a sin to purchase and consume meats at fast food and other restaurants knowing that the farms/companies which supply these meats to these restaurants employ factory farming?

 

[Liz_Ketring]

render what is Caesare’s to Caesare and to God the same …
and again , those who know much will account for much
and one more still if, you believe it is a sin , it is . If your brother does not believe the same as you ,he/she is not committing any sin .

Of course these are just paraphased from scripture and I’m sure you know the stories well .
I just hope they help you out … If a person believes he/she is sinning he/she is . But we mustn’t temp another into doing what they would consider wrong even if ,by Gods or mans law it isn’t .Their belief is what makes it so and we will be accounted for it … Liz K

 

[LilyM]

I think there are a lot of factors coming into this question. A family friend of mine was a large scale farmer keeping huge numbers of chickens for egg production. I went into the chicken sheds many times. While they were not, I’m sure, ideal or optimal places for chickens to be, neither were they particularly awful nor were the chickens particularly badly treated.

I suspect that some aspects of large-scale farming are sometimes exaggerated by those with an animal-rights agenda. I also suspect that some bad apples have tainted public perception of the whole barrel.

 

[Windmill]

One classic Catholic moral theology textbook says this:

Man has no duties towards animals since they have no independent personality [ie, personhood]. Being ordained for the service of man, animals may be used for any ethical purpose.

Such use is lawful even when it implies suffering and death for the animal. Vivisection, therefore, is lawful, provided it actually serves the advancement of science, and the animal is not made to suffer more than is absolutely necessary.

It is sinful, however, to cause an animal unnecessary pain. The sinfulness does not lie in the violation of a right that an animal might possess, but only in the action’s opposition to reason which forbids the needless causing of pain and death. In itself this would only be a venial sin. The action would be rendered more seriously sinful by its brutalizing effect on the tormentor himself, and even more so by the gratification of sadistic impulses often connected with such conduct.

*Moral Theology *(Jone), 221 II, 1-2

The above quotation is from a moral theology textbook that is so well trusted, even the SSPX priests use it.

Now, the ideas in play here are the necessity of the degree of suffering of animals destined for human consumption. Note, the morality does not base itself on the absence or presence of suffering, for a total absence of suffering would be impossible to achieve and still consume animals. We have to kill them to eat them. And eating animals is not sinful.

So we have to focus on whether or not the amount of suffering is actually necessary. While some may say that this is unnecessary, I would ask what alternatives there are. If “animal rights” activists had their way, what would the cost of meat be? Would it be cost prohibitive? Would we be forced to become vegetarians? If it came down to it, are we expecting the industry to pursue an unreachable goal?

Beyond that, even if there was needless suffering, it would not be mortal sin, per se, for the tormentor unless the he was getting some gratification from the tormenting or suffering some large degree of brutalization as a result of it.

Beyond that, there is the necessity to eat - eating is an “ethical purpose”.

Also, we cannot be expected to raise our own meats due to sanitary conditions, the loss of general knowledge of cattle farming (ie, we don’t all know how to raise and harvest meat properly). So we are reliant on the meat industry to give us food.

Finally, there is the fact that our participation in the treatment of cattle as consumers is remote, at best. So the real moral question and responsibility here lies with the meat producers, not the consumers.

All things combined, the OP can choose to buy foods that have a more humane treatment of their animals (if it is not a big financial burden), but there is little or no sin in buying the foods he is concerned about- certainly not anything that is serious matter for confession.

 

[bzkoss236]

I also suspect that some bad apples have tainted public perception of the whole barrel.

I don’t doubt this considering it happens with loads of different groups, including Christians.

 

[Kathrin]

similar to the moral issue of “slave” labor with humans… is it ok to buy something “made in China” etc?
I believe it also depends on what other options are available, how important the product (be it food, meat, or something else) is, hiw easy it is to get an alternative, etc.

I have had more than one conversation/message exchange with a priest about this issue (“slave” labour). He may have treated the issue differently with me since my main problem has been OVER- scrupulosity, but I still thingk the above thoughts (influenced by these conversations) are valid for all?

p.s. I personally am a vegetarian so the meat problem is not a dilemma for me personally and has never been an issue.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It is not a sin to eat meat, even if we don’t know how the animals were killed, or before, how they were raised.

But if it bothers you to do this, then become a vegetarian. I was a vegetarian for years because cutting up animal corpses to cook them seemed disgusting to me.

 

[Nigel7]

It is not a sin to eat meat, even if we don’t know how the animals were killed, or before, how they were raised.

But if it bothers you to do this, then become a vegetarian. I was a vegetarian for years because cutting up animal corpses to cook them seemed disgusting to me.

That’s not necessary. There are plenty of places these days that sell meat from farms which treat animals more humanely. Open range farms, etc…
Sure, he will spend a little more for those products, but the OP’s options certainly go well beyond choosing between Big Macs or vegetarianism.

 

[R_C]

Have said all of the above the bottom line obvious question I have is: Is it a sin to purchase and consume meats at fast food and other restaurants knowing that the farms/companies which supply these meats to these restaurants employ factory farming?

Interesting question :sad_yes: One may argue that as you educate yourself you step out of invincible ignorance…however, I am not entirely sure about the stance of the Church on these issues.

In these complicated issues I try to close my eyes and listen to my conscience. If you feel uncomfortable eating these meats, then abstain from doing so As Christians, we are not called to do the basic, but to go beyond the basic. Christ did not say: “try not to hurt one another too much”, He said: “be perfect”. Maybe we will never get there, but we can try.

Perhaps it is no sin, but if you think so, considering that these meals are not indispensable for your survival, you may give them up, given the sound moral reasons you bring forth. You actually gave me something to think about.

I personally don’t consider that we ought to entirely abstain from meat, but who knows, I may be wrong

 

[thistle]

Hello folks…

I’m really struggling with a particular issue right now that’s very dear to my wife’s heart and as such effects me too. This issue I’m struggling with is the purchasing and consumption of fast food meats and meats which are offered at any typical trendy restaurant. To my knowledge, the entire fast food industry and other restaurant’s are kept alive by the factory farming industry. That said, I’ve seen various media depicting the deplorable conditions which animals are kept in and how they are treated at these facilities. Furthermore, our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI wrote about this very issue in a book titled “God and the World: A Conversation with Peter Seewald” (Ignatious Press, 2002, Pgs 78-79). In this book Pope Benedict speaks about factory farming how the techniques employed at these facilities are in direct violation of the biblical directive to treat animals with respect.

Have said all of the above the bottom line obvious question I have is: Is it a sin to purchase and consume meats at fast food and other restaurants knowing that the farms/companies which supply these meats to these restaurants employ factory farming?

No it is not a sin.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

That’s not necessary. There are plenty of places these days that sell meat from farms which treat animals more humanely. Open range farms, etc…
Sure, he will spend a little more for those products, but the OP’s options certainly go well beyond choosing between Big Macs or vegetarianism.

OK, thanks for that. Sometimes those “Free range” meats or poultry aren’t any better than the regular farms, so one has to do some homework. Would be best, if you still wanted to eat meat, to find a local farmer who kills humanely, perhaps.

Fast food isn’t good for anyone so that’s a no-brainer.

 

[sunnyco]

This is a very good question, and one that needs more discussion in the church.

First, we know that there is official teaching on the matter. As has been mentioned, the Pope has himself denounced factory farming as evil, and the catechism teaches that causing animals to suffer needlessly is a sin. Is eating this meat causing unnecessary suffering? Investigation into slaughterhouse practices have always revealed that every single one investigated breaks the (very lenient) codes of conduct, for example dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020151/Abattoir-staffs-shocking-animal-cruelty-filmed-WONT-prosecuted.html When we also consider that eating meat is unnecessary, and in fact we would be healthier without it, then we know it must be a sin to support such practices.

There was a marvellous piece in the Vatican’s paper a few years ago, a strong condemnation of factory farming, which pointed out that God designed animals to raise their families, to breathe fresh air, to feel the sun on their backs. Modern farms don’t allow animals to do any of these things.

Secondly, we must look to our informed conscience and the example of Jesus, as in all matters. Jesus’ message is about love and compassion, but there is nothing loving or compassionate at factory farms and slaughterhouses, where billions of animals endure miserable lives and die violent deaths. Jesus mandates kindness and mercy for all God’s creatures. He’d be appalled by the suffering that we inflict on animals today to indulge our acquired taste for their flesh. Can we honestly say that we think if Jesus walked into a modern factory farm and saw all the suffering, he would say “Yeah, fine. Nothing here that would upset my Father, who is love itself”?

 

[april32010]

Respect for the integrity of creation
2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196 (226, 358, 373, 378)
2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. (344)
2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives. (2234)
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons. (2446)2457 Animals are entrusted to man’s stewardship; he must show them kindness. They may be used to serve the just satisfaction of man’s needs.

 

[april32010]

the Pope has himself denounced factory farming as evil,

no ,he did not :tsktsk:

“That is a very serious question. At any rate, we can see that they are given into our care, that we cannot just do whatever we want with them. Animals, too, are God’s creatures . . . . Certainly, a sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible.”

 

[AssisiFollower]

Hello and thank you for posting on this subject.

This is just what I personally and humbly think, but I think if God has touched you and your wife in your hearts to have sorrow for His beautiful and mistreated creatures, then you have been blessed with eyes and the courage to see suffering where it may be very convenient to ignore.

I am not going to comment on whether or not it is overall wrong to eat meat (often, or at all), but I think that if this is the compassion you are feeling then you should pray toward acting it out. If, in order to act out the compassion you feel, you feel that you should be a vegetarian or at least reduce your meat consumption, then I think that is the right thing to do.

If it is any counsel, I am a vegetarian, and my abstention from meat is very important for me in my spiritual life. This is because I feel that it signifies at least one place in my life where I conscienciously follow God’s call toward the compassion he has given me in my heart.

Again, I do not mean to say that if you do not become a vegetarian (or if others are not) that it is incompassionate or wrong of them, but just that if you have been given that compassion you are touched and should reflect upon it as such

 

[JeanMarc]

Hello,

I am vegetarian also and I try to discuss this here :

blog.adw.org/2009/07/ask-a-question-4/comment-page-5/#comment-133034

starting on december 5, 2012, with name Jean-Marc; it is the archidiocese of Washington, and in Washington is the greatest march for life in USA

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_for_Life_%28Washington,_D.C.%29

I am also a prolifer and I try here do debate about vegetarianism, with some biblical quotes (but not only) and arguments… I think you can find some ideas also here.