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Tom317
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I agree with your points, yet you seem to be saying (and so are others here) that providing a bed, food and water are going to lead to that slippery slope of 2.1 kids and 4,000 sqf homes. Are you really saying that?
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susie_g
Guest
I don’t think anyone has even hinted that we are not expected to provide food and water to our children, just an interesting discussion about whether or not everyone needs their own bed. My father in law shared a bed with his two brothers while growing up, and it doesn’t seem to have ruined him in any way. By the way, he did grow up in America, and not a third world country.
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Tom317
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Fine, I suppose people can do whatever they choose, and sometimes kids are given by God and parents have no choice but to stuff those kids into a bed with someone else. My question does not center on being able to handle situation like that, I am merely asking what are the basic requirements for any Catholic parent to consider. Personally, I think providing a bed (note: not their own room, or even a room with just one sibling, not games, not tv’s, not electronics, no air conditioning, not a million other things), just a bed, food and water.
There is a question of human dignity in this topic.
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susie_g
Guest
Well, I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s “undignified” for children to be crowded or share a bed, but maybe you do see it that way. Maybe that’s where the line is drawn for you, and that’s fine.
I’m under the impression that you are a person who is very open to new life, hence the 6 children, and struggling with how fervently you should be trying to avoid more. I definitely don’t think that you have a problem with selfishness or materialism, and I think that when other posters are making comments about that “slippery slope” idea, it isn’t necessarily intended just for you. We are talking about large families in general, and not about your specific situation.
Don’t you agree that, when possible, large families should be encouraged rather than discouraged? That “world overpopulation” is not a reason for a couple to keep their family size small?
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lifeisbeautiful
Guest
Hey Tom317, I’ve read a little more on this thread now and saw how you were explaining your case. I just think that no one on here is in any position to tell you whether or not you have reason to avoid. (Is this what you mean by Catholics attacking?) The comments I supported are comments that I found were good on their own, applicable in general to everyone, including myself.
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Tom317
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The problem is, I am asking for opinions about a situation that my wife and I are facing, one that is a “good” situation in that we already have six kids and are open for more if that is God’s will. Therefore, general responses by people here are not fair in my opinion because I am seeking opinions from fellow Catholics about “our” situation, not about Catholics down the block.
I think Catholics today are so “angry and frustrated” about the state of the world, that they think they must never engage in personal talks because they must always be evangelizing, and I find that to be wrong-headed in many ways…we lose the ability to be personal when we constantly strive to tell the Catholic world how to be Catholic. No-one here is going to convince my wife and I that we are not “Catholic” enough, yet in many ways that is the message I am hearing, and that is just flat-out hateful and hurtful towards a very strong Catholic faith. I think ONE poster actually applauded the fact that we have six kids and that we are still open to life even though we are getting older in years…I see nearly zero love or encouragement from people who are supposed to me my brethen and frankly that just stinks.
Yes, large families is something Catholics should be encourage to have, without doubt. Plus, I do not believe there is such a thing as overpopulation, so I think that is an un-informed position for any person to take.
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buffalo
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I disagree. I believe that large families have an abundance of love. The slippery slope I have laid out can take one down the road to selfishness. Do we want to make this kind of decision based on selfishness? No. (but many do) I do applaud you for being loving in the fact you already love six children. Kudos to you.
I am supporting you.There is a saying - one who has little learns to share a lot, one who has a lot shares little.
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susie_g
Guest
Probably, what you should have done, was to start your own new thread asking what people think of your specific situation, as this one is a more general one about poverty and world population.
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Tom317
Guest
To all,
I came here looking for help from fellow Catholics, and found that I am not going to get anything but lectures and statements that indirectly question my faith–not exactly what I thought I would get here…oh well, live and learn I guess.
Thank you for the chat, I will leave now and let this thread get back to the OP.
God Bless to all.
I came here looking for help from fellow Catholics, and found that I am not going to get anything but lectures and statements that indirectly question my faith–not exactly what I thought I would get here…oh well, live and learn I guess.
Thank you for the chat, I will leave now and let this thread get back to the OP.
God Bless to all.
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kamz
Guest
Don’t leave, everyone has different opinons and I agree with alot of what your saying… you are a good person trying to find your way and we all have a right to our opinions… What happens with your family and in your life is between you, your wife and God and that goes for everyone on this board… it doesn’t make one person a better Catholic etc.To all,
I came here looking for help from fellow Catholics, and found that I am not going to get anything but lectures and statements that indirectly question my faith–not exactly what I thought I would get here…oh well, live and learn I guess.
Thank you for the chat, I will leave now and let this thread get back to the OP.
God Bless to all.
Don’t leave please
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Rob_s_Wife
Guest
I think the slippery slope he is referring to is the human tendency to turn our own expectations into requirements for obeying God. He was not and I am not accusing you of sliding down that slope. Just offerrng a general friendly advisory.
I don’t know what they were saying. If a person has the mindset of if they can’t provide food or water or a bed then they shouldn’t have the baby - then yes. The church does not require anyone to use NFP and we should not be requiring more of people than the Church does. It also leads to the idea that abortion and such horrors are acceptable in those circumstances - which it is not.
I should think everyone would agree food, water, and shelter are basics for survival and wouldn’t fault anyone for wanting such for their children.
A bed is not neccessary, but I can understand why you would want it for your kids. My own dh is very strict on this. The kids may share on their own, but all of the children have their own bed. I don’t think he’d not want more chidlren if that changed, but it would bother him greatly.
As others have said, not having our own beds is not against our dignity or a child’s dignity. Wanting to provide that for you children is a personal choice that no one is holding against you. The argument is simply that it’s not an issue of human dignity or a human right.
The problem is, I am asking for opinions about a situation that my wife and I are facing, one that is a “good” situation in that we already have six kids and are open for more if that is God’s will.
I think it’s great that you have 6 kids! It’s a nice start.I don’t know that it has anything to do with the issue at hand though? If you were in the same situation but didn’t have any children - would the answer change? I find this to be a help in deciding for some people. Would you be as conflicted if this were a case of deciding to accept a first child?
We lose the ability to be personal when we constantly strive to tell the Catholic world how to be Catholic.
**It’s a work of mercy to educate the ignorant - and it’s especially important in educating people in their faith. This IS something that should be done constantly. The closest anyone has come is my saying you are not required as a Catholic to use NFP and the choice is yours alone if you want to use it. **
No-one here is going to convince my wife and I that we are not “Catholic” enough,
**How is saying that you are not required to use NFP and the option to use it is up to your own understanding of your situation saying you aren’t Catholic enough?**
I see nearly zero love or encouragement from people who are supposed to me my brethen and frankly that just stinks.
Yes, large families is something Catholics should be encourage to have, without doubt.
I disagree. Yes, that’s right. The mom of 8 disagrees.Catholics should be encouraged to let the natural state of their marriage progress (or not) according to God’s will. NFP is not intended for general use or as a natural function is a marriage. It’s not about encouraging a large family per se. It’s simply about living a part (no where near the whole) of God’s design for marriage. Family size is irrelavent to that.
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Suz21
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Thanks Rob’s wife, you’ve helped make the issue a lot clearer, in my mind at least.
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lifeisbeautiful
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Martha, although I agree in general with everything else you have posted… unless I misinterpreted what the Pope was saying, wasn’t he encouraging Catholics to have large families?
“Pope Encourages Catholics to Have Large Families” catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=108&art_id=29882
It could have been a misinterpretation of the people writing the article (actually I have read different articles written by different people that interpreted it this way, so maybe a misinterpretation in general?) but it seems like the Pope Benedict XVI was encouraging Catholics to have large families… I could be wrong though…
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Rob_s_Wife
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hmmm, I don’t know if either of us are ‘right’ on this one.
I didn’t get that impression from the article. He is relating a biblical passage that gives the image of a man blessed in his many children. He also mentions the problems of demographics in modern times. I get the distinct ‘impression’ that what I think is large may be different from others. Usually when someone mentions demographics, we’re simply talking more than replacement numbers, more than 2.5. I’ve laughed over the notion that 3 or 4 is large, but I know many who think it is.
I took a different apsect away from the article. Catholics should be having children and encouraged to do so. Regardless of whether it’s the 3rd child or the 12th. There are benefits other than money that may reap far more comfort to the parents in their old age than a bank account.
This would be the ideal, imo. If parents are not encouraged from the beginning with 1 - 3, you can pretty much bet they won’t be lining up for the chance to have a half dozen or more.
**As for whether the Pope would agree with me… I have no idea. I would be interested to hear what he thinks a large family is though. Should we be shooting for a certain number?
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vluvski
Guest
You know, DH’s economics professor told his class, “The surest way to ensure a comfortable retirement is to have many children.” This was after explaining what starting salaries might look like around the time our children would be entering the work force.
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Suz21
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Well, in OUR economic textbooks in school, they actually have little diagrams of small and big families, with the captions Small Family= Happy family, Big family=Unhappy family. Things like, the mother can give more attention when she has less children… Grrrr. It used to make me so mad- I come from a family with five kids… I’d be like, how can you tell me I’m not happy?!!
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vluvski
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Suz, we had a cartoon like that in my French book.
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Catherine_Grant
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Susie,
Great advice! As this thread seems to have strayed very far from the original topic, I am closing it with my apologies to the original poster. Any who wish to start follow-up threads may do so. Please make a new thread in the appropriate forum for each new topic. These might include the OP’s personal situation, other posters’ personal situations, and discussion about overpopulation.
I thank you for your cooperation.
May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine
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