Reasons not to be Catholic?

[hn160]

Perhaps there aren’t enough of the LAITY? If you have two churches in town, one built for 1000 and one for 2000, and there aren’t even 50 Catholics who attend Mass on a regular basis, and one of the churches is getting old, costs a fortune to heat and insure, and would cost millions to renovate, why WOULDN’T you close the one of the two churches that would be less ‘productive’ to the actual laity?

So St. Peter was married. He also MIGHT have been a widower since his wife was not mentioned though his mother-in-law was. So what?

What part of “Discipline from the HOLY SPIRIT” is hard to understand? You’re acting as though the idea of celibate priesthood came out of nowhere (ignoring that Christ Himself never married and that Christ indeed spoke of celibate priests in Scripture) and that God meanwhile is weeping tears because His will is being thwarted by the big bad Catholics. . .

Don’t be so testy, I was just asking a couple of questions.:tsktsk:

 

[PRmerger]

No insult or put down intended, but I am not really understanding what you are trying to point out with this list.

The point is that in each of those items mentioned in my non-exhaustive list there’s about 20 different teachings by different Christian churches. Some are completely contradictory.

There is no communion, as namaste was trying to propose.

Instead, there is chaos and confusion.

If they were truly unified, joined to the Body of Christ, there would be union in understanding of Christ’s teachings, yes?

 

[hn160]

This is the LC-MS Profile.
• Pro-Life
• Attend weekly services
• Baptism (sprinkling, ok; Immersion, ok;Infant, Adult if required; Sacrament; Trinitarian formula Required.
• Charity
• Church leadership,
• Death
• Jesus used wine at the Last Supper
• Divorce, not recommended
• Drinking allowed - Beer is the German National Drink.
• Head coverings optional
• Theology of the Cross, Law and Gospel Sermons
• Hell
• Homosexuality is considered a sin, no ordination for homosexuals
• God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others
• Lord’s day on Sunday
• Music and singing with liturgy
• Can fall away from the faith.
• Ordination
• Predestination, no double predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• No Tongues
• Trinity
• Sin is sin
. Lord’s Day is Sunday
• No women pastors

 

[PRmerger]

This is the LC-MS Profile.
• Pro-Life
• Attend weekly services
• Baptism (sprinkling, ok; Immersion, ok;Infant, Adult if required; Sacrament; Trinitarian formula Required.
• Charity
• Church leadership,
• Death
• Jesus used wine at the Last Supper
• Divorce, not recommended
• Drinking allowed - Beer is the German National Drink.
• Head coverings optional
• Theology of the Cross, Law and Gospel Sermons
• Hell
• Homosexuality is considered a sin, no ordination for homosexuals
• God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others
• Lord’s day on Sunday
• Music and singing with liturgy
• Can fall away from the faith.
• Ordination
• Predestination, no double predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• No Tongues
• Trinity
• Sin is sin
. Lord’s Day is Sunday
• No women pastors

Thanks for sharing that, hn, but it’s really a non-sequitor.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Logic tells us that this is not so.

Just look at this (nonexhaustive) list of all the different doctrines/teachings that exist in this one “communion.”

Communion is derived from com- “with, together” + unus “oneness, union.”

Clearly, this list below limns the sad nature of this non-union with Christ and His Church:

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

So was this just off the Top of your Head?

 

[namaste8715]

The point is that in each of those items mentioned in my non-exhaustive list there’s about 20 different teachings by different Christian churches. Some are completely contradictory.

There is no communion, as namaste was trying to propose.

Instead, there is chaos and confusion.

If they were truly unified, joined to the Body of Christ, there would be union in understanding of Christ’s teachings, yes?

Hey there PRmerger. First, sorry for the quote issue, if it is in fact an issue.

Second, I think this is just not fair, especially for this thread. This thread, to the best of my knowledge, isn’t meant to be bashing session for those who aren’t Catholic, but a place to discuss why we are not. I think that also stands for not bashing our communion. I don’t believe there is chaos and confusion - doesn’t the Catholic church teach that all humans baptized in Christ are in unity?

From Ut unum sint:
*
Furthermore, the Sacrament of Baptism, which we have in common, represents “a sacramental bond of unity linking all who have been reborn by means of it”.118 The theological, pastoral and ecumenical implications of our common Baptism are many and important. Although this sacrament of itself is “only a beginning, a point of departure”, it is “oriented towards a complete profession of faith, a complete incorporation into the system of salvation such as Christ himself willed it to be, and finally, towards a complete participation in Eucharistic communion”.119*

LIT, if you’ve not read the full text of this, it’s such a lovely document that shows how beautifully we all CAN come together in Christ (not chaos):

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint_en.html

 

[PRmerger]

Hey there PRmerger. First, sorry for the quote issue, if it is in fact an issue.

Second, I think this is just not fair, especially for this thread. This thread, to the best of my knowledge, isn’t meant to be bashing session for those who aren’t Catholic, but a place to discuss why we are not.

“Bashing sessions” are against forum rules, namaste. No one, even a Catholic, is allowed to “bash” another.

Not sure where you feel there was a “bashing session”–was it the list that I provided that prompted this?

I don’t believe there is chaos and confusion - doesn’t the Catholic church teach that all humans baptized in Christ are in unity?

Indeed. You are my brother in Christ, and in Him we are united.

However, in that we do not know whether baptism saves, whether in ought to be done in the Trinitarian formula or Jesus’ name, in infancy or adulthood, by sprinkling or immersion, in a river or in a font, call it a sacrament or an ordinance, by a pastor or layman…there is indeed chaos and confusion.

(And that’s just from one item on my list.)

From Ut unum sint:
*
Furthermore, the Sacrament of Baptism, which we have in common, represents “a sacramental bond of unity linking all who have been reborn by means of it”.118 The theological, pastoral and ecumenical implications of our common Baptism are many and important. Although this sacrament of itself is “only a beginning, a point of departure”, it is “oriented towards a complete profession of faith, a complete incorporation into the system of salvation such as Christ himself willed it to be, and finally, towards a complete participation in Eucharistic communion”.119*

And please note, from the document you quoted, in the very next paragraph, which echoes and affirms my point rather nicely:

[SIGN]the post-Reformation Communities lack that “fullness of unity with us which should flow from Baptism”,[/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

So was this just off the Top of your Head?

It was a list originally compiled by Prodigal Son1, (and re-posted with his permission), to which I have added and edited.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Listen everything was done with responsible love and concern. Granted you might have gotten your feeling hurt.

But theres no denying the list PR posted in not only accurate but a bit out of control, wouldn’t you agree?

Could you image at this pace in another 500 years what that list will look like? Common on, let us not talk falsely now.

I be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt “maybe” there is a debatable issue. But all those?

We’re down with scripture here, love you enemy and pray for them in the CC and NT message. Theres no hostility or hate. Its just as I stated responsible love and concern.

Ironically read the other thread about those who were Protestant that left their faith to convert to the CC? Now theres some amazing hurtfull thinking. I’ve seen it with my sister in law. Her family dis-owned her. And her children. They didn’t care about inheritance which was also cut off. It was the idea of being a Chistian and treating a family member like that? My brother could have cared less about there money.

My Niece live 5-minutes from her Grandparents in Tampa now, on my sister in laws side of the familiy. They ignore her when they come across her. How sad and sick is that?

You think thats NT teaching?

God Bless, Gary

 

[LOCO]

**

I’ve wanted to jump in on conversations like this but always hesitate. I guess I think it’s because it’s pretty pointless. I do have to say that with the exception of the people on this forum, I have NEVER heard a Catholic talk about reading the Bible, let alone quote a Bible verse except the Peter the Pope verse in Matthew.

Not sure how many Catholics you personally know or how familiar they are with their faith. there are many lazy and poorly catechised Catholics out there. There are billions of Catholics worldwide and every Catholic I know reads the Bible alongside the CCC.

From my experience Protestants ‘memorise’ the bible verses whereas Catholics strive to learn exactly what the verses mean contextually and theologically.

***I’ve never known a Catholic who believes that the Eucharist is transformed in some way to the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ. ***

Every Catholic I know believes in Transubstantiation. The Eucharist is transformed miraculously into the Body and Blood of Christ.
**
When I’ve tried to get them to clarify that for me they usually just say, “I don’t know, that’s just what they tell us”. **

Sounds like poorly catechised Catholics.

I’ve heard that Catholics don’t worship Mary, the Saints and icons and what-not, but it’s not what I actually SEE in practice. I’ve SEEN people bowing down in front of a statue of Mary. I guess that’s just veneration.

Ah…but do you know what is written on their hearts. Nothing wrong with bowing in front of a statue. People bow before the Queen or stand up when the President enters the room, it is a sign of respect.

Bowing does not automatically = WORSHIP

For idolatry to exist they would have to:

a) Think of that statue as a ‘God’ with divine powers and;

b) Worship it ‘the statue’ in their hearts (only God knows what is written in our hearts)

I don’t know the difference. I have a Bible, I read it daily and it all seems pretty clear to me (except maybe the book of Revelation) and I don’t have problems understanding it. I’ve read the Catholic Bible too, and don’t have any problems understanding that either.

**I’ve had Catholic friends tell me that they have to hurry up and go to confession before they go to the bar so that they can confess about the fornication they’ll be committing that night???
**

Not sure what your point is. My Protestant friend tells me that she confesses in private one on one with God every time before she goes and gambles away the grocery money.

If a Catholic or any Christian is confessing in an ‘unrepetentant’ state then they are fooling no-one but themselves.

**
Seriously? I’ve had Catholic friends tell me they’re giving up Diet Coke for lent cause they like Mt. Dew better. **

And your point is

**I even knew a Catholic girl in college who protested at an abortion clinic the week after she had had an abortion there! **

You seem to think that personal sins are an indictment on the CC as a whole. Everyone is responsible for their own salvation. The Church is very clear in its Teachings on how to avoid a sticky end. Keep the Sacraments and be ‘genuine’ about the faith. It is our responsibility to follow its Teachings. Being the weak creatures we are, we all get lead astray. Leading an unexamined life definitely makes it worse.

**
Now either I’ve had the WORST examples of Catholic friends on the planet, or there’s a whole lot of misconception within the church as well as outside of it. **

No, they are no different from other Christians. Everyone sins. The trick is not to whinge about it or haughtily justify your bad behvaiour or alternatively project an ‘holier than thou’ attitude’. We are all bearing our own crosses.

Your Catholic friends are either poorly catechised, do not practise their faith faithfully or undiscerning about what it means to be Catholic. Or, all of the above.

I’ve read the posts that bash the “fundies”, or “born agains” as if that’s something bad, or just plain Protestant and yet Pope John Paul told the audience in Denver that NOBODY would go to heaven unless they did what John 3:3 says. By the way, that verse says you must be born again.

Catholics are ‘born again’ at Baptism. However, we do not believe that just because you have been baptised that no matter what you do and/or say, you are saved and going to heaven. It is not a ‘one time’ event, salvation is a lifetime process and yes salvation is a gift which can be ‘lost’ or ‘returned’.

**Maybe the OP’s question should be “Reasons not to be Religious”. Perhaps that’s what Jesus was trying to address when he challenged the Pharisees and Sadducees. They certainly were “religious” but didn’t have the ability to see the truth even when He looked them in the eyes. I believe God wants relationship, not religion. He gave us His word to show us what and who He is. If He hadn’t desired a relationship with humans, why would He have bothered showing us how to get to know Him? He gave us His Son so that ALL could be saved. **

Please clarify what you mean by ‘word’, he gave us his word. Do you mean the Bible?

Catholics see Jesus as the ‘Word of God’. And that is who our primary relationship should be with, the ‘living word’ not an inanimate object.

Catholics refer to the Bible as the ‘word of God’ (small w).

I don’t know, just thinking out loud. Not to start a fight, just more observation than anything. I’ll probably get booted for this.

No, these are valid observations. It is important as ‘christians’ to try to separate the sinner from the sin’.

**

 

[GaryTaylor]

The fact the one knows so many Catholic that are so deeply inviolved in sin, makes me wonder what kind of lifestyle you live?

Cause I can assure you while there are certainly lost Catholic Souls, you can also attend the Mass on ant Sunday and I’m convinced you’ll find exactly the opposite of every point mentioned in the obove post.

Theres no shame in making a mistake, everyone makes mistakes. The tragedy is making the same mistake over and over and over. Failures? geez just study Abraham Lincoln.

 

[kindheart]

I do have to say that with the exception of the people on this forum, I have NEVER heard a Catholic talk about reading the Bible, let alone quote a Bible verse except the Peter the Pope verse in Matthew. I’ve never known a Catholic who believes that the Eucharist is transformed in some way to the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ. When I’ve tried to get them to clarify that for me they usually just say, “I don’t know, that’s just what they tell us”. I’ve heard that Catholics don’t worship Mary, the Saints and icons and what-not, but it’s not what I actually SEE in practice. I’ve SEEN people bowing down in front of a statue of Mary. I guess that’s just veneration. I don’t know the difference. I have a Bible, I read it daily and it all seems pretty clear to me (except maybe the book of Revelation) and I don’t have problems understanding it. I’ve read the Catholic Bible too, and don’t have any problems understanding that either. I’ve had Catholic friends tell me that they have to hurry up and go to confession before they go to the bar so that they can confess about the fornication they’ll be committing that night??? Seriously? I’ve had Catholic friends tell me they’re giving up Diet Coke for lent cause they like Mt. Dew better. I even knew a Catholic girl in college who protested at an abortion clinic the week after she had had an abortion there!
Now either I’ve had the WORST examples of Catholic friends on the planet, or there’s a whole lot of misconception within the church as well as outside of it.

Sad, isn’t it! this was my conception of the CC too! But as I began to research, the truth about the Church overwhelmed me and helped me overcome the fact that many Catholics ‘don’t know what they believe’. And eventually, I couldn’t wait to come home to Rome! I’m praying that I can at least be one out there that give RC’s a better name

 

[kindheart]

:

I believe that one should truly enjoy their worship experience, and I just didn’t enjoy the RCC for worship. There are many, many on this forum that will tell me that I am simply wrong in that, and that it may in fact damn me to Hell, but I’m ok with that. My reasons for not being Catholic (uppercase) are:

• I believe that each individual has the right and the means to interpret Scripture
• I don’t agree with large portions of the Catechism
• I believe that all Christians, even if they are on different paths, are on the right path - back to Christ
• I believe priests should be allowed to marry
• I believe that Christians have the RIGHT to enjoy worship, and to choose a worship style that reflects themselves

Just curious, who’s your authority?