Rebuking other Parishioners

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GoldenArrow

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I have a friend at church who has appointed herself the Parish’s policewoman, taking upon her self the task of rebuking everyone, molding the Parish into her idea of perfection…

I once sent her a harsh email, telling her that she was acting like a Pharisee, judging others when she herself has glaring faults that she is either unaware of or denies. One of her major flaws is pride and rash judgment. She has, in effect, a classic Pharisaical Conscience.

My rebuke had no effect. She laughed it off. To her, I’m just a kid.

She is one of those people who likes to blow a trumpet every time she does a good work. She goes to daily Mass, says her rosary every day, in public. She’s involved in prayer groups, bible studies. One cannot say that she’s not devout. I just think that perhaps she does some of these activities, not out of charity for God, but to display her religiousity to others in the manner of a Peacock.

Let me give some examples:

She regularly corrects people for whispering in the chapel when she herself sometimes whispers in the chapel (usually when asking me something). The last time she corrected someone, she did so by whacking her missal on the pew very loudly! Very immature.

She yells at the lectors for accidentally reading Scripture incorrectly, when, the one time she filled in as lector, she accidentally, read the WRONG scripture reading entirely.

She corrected the Deacon after Mass when he mispronounced the last name of Takeri Tekawithika. She, of course, knows how to pronounce this name in the authentic Native American tongue. HA! The poor deacon, who was just getting over heart surgery, just shook his head.

She even rebukes people in the Sunday prayer group for, as she puts it, “Not doing their job in mitigating these storms [hurricanes]. The Divine Mercy Chaplet needs to be said every day, not just at your own whim. Blah blah.” The person she targeted (wasn’t me) is a very nice, devout, woman who does a heck of a lot of work in the Church. Unlike my friend, this other woman does works without the pomp and circumstance…

My friend yelled at a guy during morning Rosary for praying too loudly! And he went up to her after Mass that morning, whispered something in her ear in reply (something unkind), and she gets up (just before Mass is about to begin) and in front of the Priest starts yelling at him. I befriended this man after this. I think he should pray even louder!

She even yelled at me last week for not being involved in official Church Ministries, that I represent the servant who buried his talents in Christ’s Parable. Granted. I’m not as much of a busy body as she (only because I’m sick a lot), but I do goto Mass three days a week and I pray a lot. I do what I can. I am more of a contemplative, Carmelite style. I do lots works, but I don’t blow a trumpet. I do a lot of evangelization on the Internet, a hidden work due to anonymity. I told her that I do a lot that she doesn’t know about and to please leave me alone.

Now, I am thinking of rebuking her again. What I’m asking of you is this: do you have any good articles about the proper way to go about “correcting” sinful behavor or “rebuking” someone? This article IS NOT for me, but would be something I could give her to read. She obviously needs some instruction.

Hence, the reason for posting this in the Apologetics Section.

If you have any article, just link them please.

She’s making people in our parish miserable. Instead of converting people, she makes them angry! I’m her closest friend, so I should be the one to whack her on the head, again. I just need a good source of information.

Don’t get me wrong. She has good qualities, like the ability to forgive. I was surprise she forgave me after my last rebuke! So … she’s not entirely nasty.

Thanks!
 
I’m sure someone here will have much better advice than I, but the poor woman sounds like she may have some kind of mental illness. I think she may need lots of prayers and maybe a good Catholic therapist? How sad that she makes everyone so uncomfortable. You must have a big heart to be her friend. :tiphat:
 
You know … she’s an instrument of my sanctification.

I like her, and yet, she drives me nuts. She has good qualities, like, she’s a good listener, for example. She also is a good cook and has invited me to her house and has fed me good food. I do love her, as she is my fellow sister in Christ.

I see her as my life’s equivalent of the nun in St Therese of Liseiux’s life who kept judging Therese rashly, who judged Therese as lazy for some of her actions, without knowing Therese’s heart.

I need to rebuke her because she’s hurting people, but mostly, she’s hurting herself. Her soul is plagued by an incorrect conscience.

The pastor has even … ahem … indirectly addressed her behavior in some of his homilies, though she doesn’t recognize it as being applicable to her. I recognized it though. His words just go in one ear and out the other.

Mental illness? Try telling her that! LOL!!! She’s … uh … a bit fiesty.
 
Maybe you should talk with your priest about it. And then he could talk to her. I mean, it’s all nice trying to be subtle, but sometimes you have to be direct. And of course, emphasize how much you all need her active in the parish.

I mean, we obviously want this woman as active as possible, but perhaps she needs to be refocused in what she is doing.

As always, do things with the eye to building up.
 
I will echo Rob’s advice: talk to the priest. This sort of thing can end up being very divisive in a parish, and there may be ways that he can put her energies to use, but in areas where she will have less of an effect on other parishioners. Given what you say, it might be unlikely that she will listen to anyone less than the parish priest. He doesn’t even have to criticize her behavior: he may be able to simply move her to projects that don’t have a lot of interaction with others.
 
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GoldenArrow:
She even yelled at me last week for not being involved in official Church Ministries, that I represent the servant who buried his talents in Christ’s Parable. Granted. I’m not as much of a busy body as she (only because I’m sick a lot), but I do go to Mass three days a week and I pray a lot. I do what I can. I am more of a contemplative, Carmelite style. I do lots works, but I don’t blow a trumpet. I do a lot of evangelization on the Internet, a hidden work due to anonymity. I told her that I do a lot that she doesn’t know about and to please leave me alone.
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Dear Golden Arrow,

You are already receiving some very good advice. Please also accept some compliments. Your Carmelite style, and truthfulness combined with patience towards your friend, is inspiring! :o Thank you and keep up the good work! 👍

~~ the phoenix
 
Problem is: she’s very strong willed and she basically imposes her will into every activity that she can. If there is something going on, she’s involved. (Honestly, I don’t know how she has the energy for all of it). She illicits friendships through these activities, and then, after friendship and adequate display of her piety is established, she starts in on the nitpicking, remolding these activities into her idea of perfection!

The problem is … The Mystical Body is not perfect! The Church’s teachings, the Magesterium/Tradition/Scripture, are perfect, but the members of Church Militant are not perfect! We are a church of sinners. The Church is a hospital for sinners and not a realm for living saints! She doesn’t understand this. She feels the Church Militant should be like the Church Triumphant on Earth.

I don’t know … maybe she’s trying to manifest herself as the fires of Purgatory in order to make it happen. HA!

She sets the bar high. Quite frankly, making us all living saints is virtually impossible, since humanity will not lose concupiescence until AFTER our bodies die and until AFTER the Resurrection at the End of the World. We are not presently images of the Risen Christ, and she thinks we all should be!

You know, we can try, but it ain’t gonna happen–unless God Wills it to. That sort of sancity must come directly from above.

As you know, there are certain human qualities that are imperfect but not offensive to God. Example: accidentally skipping a word when reading something aloud, accidentally forgetting that Pope Benedict is now the pope and accidentally saying during the Eucharistic Prayer “in union with Pope John Paul II.” I’ve heard a couple priests accidentally do that. We even had a poor old man wet his pants during Mass last week, and had she seen the back side of his drawers, like I did, she’d have rebuked him! Thank goodness she sits in the front row, and didn’t see him, better for him and her. To her, even these minor imperfections are intolerable! Heck, I even confessed to her that when I’m alone I pick my nose, because sometimes that’s the ONLY way to adequately clear one’s nasal passages, and she shook her head, like she thought that was a sin!

Picking one’s nose is not a sin. Yes, it’s gross. Yes, sometimes green and strangely colored things emerge, but it is sometimes necessary in a body made of imperfect flesh.

What I might do is first ask the parish priest what he thinks I should do about her behavior, and see if he offers to do the rebuking himself. I hate to ask this of him. You just don’t know her. I’d rather have her rip ME to shreds than him.

Basically, when I described her as fiesty, I wasn’t exaggerating.

So again, if you have any articles of instruction in the area of rebuking with love, please link me. HA!

God bless your your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Maybe … I’ll suggest to her that everytime she criticizes someone for ANYTHING, for ANY reason, that she must give out TEN compliments that day — good compliments that apply to one’s salvation. Just saying you like someone’s scarf doesn’t count. Every soul-criticism requires ten soul-compliments (not necessarily to the same person). If I were Jesus, that would be what I’d require of her if she is going to be the parish policewoman. You can’t just focus on the negative.
 
You are already receiving some very good advice. Please also accept some compliments. Your Carmelite style, and truthfulness combined with patience towards your friend, is inspiring! Thank you and keep up the good work!
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Aww! Shucks.

Thanks. God Bless You. 🙂
 
Dear GoldenArrow,

You know, as you describe your friend, she sounds eccentrically endearing, and an intriguing challenge … I can see why you’re still her friend. I must admit, given my mischievous and playful streak, I’d be sorely tempted towards instigating practical jokes around her … (that’s one of my weaknesses!) 😛

More seriously, this woman sounds like she has an enormous amount of energy that she’s absolutely, passionately ACHING to use on behalf of heroically good causes. The National March for Life in Washington, DC will be coming up in January … I think she would be an awesome Prayer Warrior to send on such a mission. Does she write articles or letters to the editor on behalf of Catholic causes, such as defending the Pope and the teachings of the Church? Might she make phone calls to Senators and Congressmen on behalf of the pro-life movement?

We in the Catholic Church DO NEED vocal people, fighters, crusaders, such as it sounds like your friend might be. Perhaps what might really help is channeling her tremendous energy into something productive.

~~ the phoenix
 
I think the technical term for her is YENTA. Every parish has a person that they can’t do without, but would often like to try. 😃 .
 
The National March for Life in Washington, DC will be coming up in January … I think she would be an awesome Prayer Warrior to send on such a mission … Might she make phone calls to Senators and Congressmen on behalf of the pro-life movement?
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That is an idea!

Hmmm … you’ve got my wheels turning.

But as far as this …
Does she write articles or letters to the editor on behalf of Catholic causes, such as defending the Pope and the teachings of the Church?
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As far as this, I think not because she doesn’t know her dogmas.

One time, I mentioned that I love The Blessed Mother and that she truly is the greatest of all Saints. She said, “No, No! Our Lady is a Divine Entity all her own.” This actually is Mariolotry, a form of Idolatry, where one gives divine honors, latria, to someone other than God. Worshipping Mary is a sin! Saying Mary is Divine is also a sin! Only God, The Trinity, is Divine. This is basic stuff, as you all well know. I was about to correct her, but she jumped to another subject so quickly I had no chance to respond.

Also, she is instrumental in forming a “M” Upper Room Sunday Prayer group, a group that I REFUSE to participate in because the Bishop Ratko Peric, the Bishop who runs the Diocese of Mostar, which is in Bosnia/Herzegovnia/Yugoslavia area that includes the region of “M” has ruled Non Constat Supernaturalitate AND he has expressly forbidden the faithful, in writing or orally, to say that Our Lady appears there. I asked my this friend to stop spreading “M” materials, and she argued with me, saying Pope John Paul II secretly supported the site. I told her she is wrong and her and her prayer group are in proximity to schism for disobedience to church heirachy. Disobeying ecclesiastical authority is a sin against the Fourth Commandment, and I told her so. I told her that the faithful, whether they be in the Diocese of Mostar or not, are still obligated to obey Bishop Ratko Peric. Period!

Anyway … I won’t go into it farther because we’re not supposed to discuss unapproved apparitions on this site. That’s why I labeled the site “M,” but I’m sure most of you know what I’m referring to. **PLEASE, I ask all of you NOT to respond to the “M” issue, because if you do, admin will lock my thread and I’ll not get the advice I need from you pertaining to the main subject of this thread. **

Let’s just say that she and her prayer group aren’t listening to me.

I even placed Bishop Ratko Peric’s anti-“M” papers in the Adoration Chapel, and my friend removed them!

In this area, as far as defending the faith and the teachings of the Church, she ain’t qualified!!!

Also, what’s a YENTA?

Thanks, all!
 
It seems my problem will likely solve itself, for my dear and misguided friend is at it once again, only this time, the target is the Pastor himself.

She comes up to me after Mass this morning and whispers, “Did you hear what Father said at the beginning of Catholic Update class last week. He made a MONUMENTAL error. Did you catch it?”

I say, “No.”

She says, “He said that the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Word are equal, and that’s just not true. My friend told me so. I think the proof is in Mysterium Fidei. Do you know?”

I say, “I don’t know anything about that.”

She says, “Gosh, now I’m going to have to go to the pastor and correct him.” She seemed nervous.

“If you do it, do it privately,” I told her.

She say, “Oh, I will. I just have to find my documentation though.”

Then she left.

She left out a LOT of what Father said, citing only one sentence of a very long explanation.

This was what Father ACTUALLY said, in Catholic Update class. The Class is about how we celebrate Mass and what Mass means. We’re studying Father Driscoll’s new book, What Happens at Mass.

Father started speaking about the two halves of the Mass: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. He said that many people diminish the importance of (and sometimes ignore) the Liturgy of the Word, in deference to Liturgy of the Eucharist. He explained that the Liturgy of the Word is no less God’s Real Presence than the His Presence in Eucharist—in that the readings of Holy Scripture during Mass are truly, actually, really, the Word of God. We are actually, truly hearing the Word of God during the scripture readings, and so the Liturgy of the Word carries equal weight to the Liturgy of the Eucharist. He explained that The Lord comes to us in His Risen Glorified Body in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, while He comes to us in His Word in the Liturgy of the Word.

My interpretation of Father’s explanation was this: Liturgy of the Eucharist is the Heart while Liturgy of the Word was the heartbeat: and in this respect they are equal. The heart is not alive without its heartbeat.

Well, my friend only heard one sentence and didn’t LISTEN to the explanation. I don’t think the Pastor is in error at all.

By the way, Mysterium Fidei says this:
“For if the sacred liturgy holds the first place in the life of the Church, the Eucharistic Mystery stands at the heart and center of the liturgy, since it is the font of life by which we are cleansed and strengthened to lie not for ourselves but for God, and to be united in love among ourselves”

In this statement Pope Paul VI is not speaking of "Liturgy of the Word vs Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Eucharistic Mystery means, to me at least, the whole Mass.

My friend is now on the warpath, and I’m just going to LET HER dig her own grave. I’ll let the Pastor deal with her himself when she tries to correct him. Oh my! I’m staying out of it.
 
Joe Kelley:
I think the technical term for her is YENTA. Every parish has a person that they can’t do without, but would often like to try. 😃 .
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I was thinking maybe a Mrs. Rachel Lynde… 😃
 
Who is Mrs. Rachel Lynde?

I still don’t understand “YENTA.”
 
Did you ever see “Fiddler on the Roof”? If I remember correctly, Yenta was the name of the busybody matchmaker.

Mrs. Rachel Lynde is the busybody neighbor from the series of books “Anne of Green Gables”

I think the others are saying your friend is a busybody, and yeah–I think you should let her dig her own grave, although I might shoot the priest a warning.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yenta
 
Yes, a yenta is an annoying busybody who is very critical of others, but entirely lacking in any level of introspection whatsoever. A yenta is nosy and constantly minding other people’s business. She’s gossipy too and has no reticence in correcting others.

This woman doesn’t sound the least bit endearing to me. She sounds like an arrogent know-it-all who doesn’t hesitate to put others on the spot by rebuking their minor faults. Some people aren’t able to shrug off this type of critisism very well and it really affects them. It’s nice that the OP is so patient, but if this woman approached me in the manner described, it would seriously upset me. I would feel belittled and attacked. It would really make me want to avoid any setting where I would be vulnerable to her negativity.

Therefore, I do think she should be reined in. Unfortunately, some priests are very mild mannered and also hesitate to upset someone who does a lot for the parish. It all depends on the priest. But, this woman is essentially a bully, and her behaviour is destructive.
 
Yes, a yenta is an annoying busybody who is very critical of others, but entirely lacking in any level of introspection whatsoever. A yenta is nosy and constantly minding other people’s business. She’s gossipy too and has no reticence in correcting others.
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Ahh. Gotcha! Sounds just like her … except she doesn’t gossip that much.

I haven’t seen Fiddler on the Roof for years, and didn’t remember the character. Thanks for the reference.

I’ll just let her dig her own grave. I have faith the Pastor can handle her. Thanks for the advice.
 
Dear friend

There is nothing anyone can say to change people. In some ways you are participating in her behaviour by retorting fire with fire if you like, by that I mean you are measuring back to her with the way she treats others. No rebuke will do. I have found people often act like this because they have never or had any or little kindness or love shown to them and so find it difficult to display it themselves. Their love and concern for others and God turns into dictatorship behaviour rather than tolerance of each other (all of us being sinners) and gentle kindness that leads people to virtue by God’s grace.

I see God as patient, that is one of the overwhelming qualities of God. Jesus was so patient with all people including His apostles and He still is. God is still angry at our offenses but He is kind and patient with His children.

You personally, nor any other person can change this lady. The only way this lady will be illuminated to herself is if people pray for her to the Holy Spirit and trust He will bestow many graces upon her, illuminate her conscience and sanctify her and meanwhile, be very tolerant with her and love her being kind to her at all times. It is the people we find most difficult to deal with that we need to love more than the rest. Pray for her and for each other, defend each others good names, speaking only good of each other, at all times exercise kindness to everyone, refuse to talk about anyone behind their back and all of the previous applies to this lady, otherwise you may be drifting into gossiping and unkindess about this lady. We must love even when it is hard to do so, we must love those who are difficult to love and we must show them the same kindness. This is how love destroys hatred and evil.

I will keep you all in my prayers and when you remember say a little prayer for me from time to time please.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
In some ways you are participating in her behaviour by retorting fire with fire if you like, by that I mean you are measuring back to her with the way she treats others. No rebuke will do. I have found people often act like this because they have never or had any or little kindness or love shown to them and so find it difficult to display it themselves. Their love and concern for others and God turns into dictatorship behaviour rather than tolerance of each other (all of us being sinners) and gentle kindness that leads people to virtue by God’s grace.
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I tried the firey approach with her about six months ago and it didn’t work. I haven’t tried it again. What about a very gentle rebuke?

Maybe I could suggest to her a different approach?

I hate to simply do nothing because she really does hurt people. Someone is going to snap one of these days and really let her have it, and I think it would be better to be proactive and prevent this from happening.

I do pray for her though.
 
Dear SpringBreeze,
That all sounds very nice and sweet, but in reality bullies need to not be allowed to push people around. This woman is probably upseting quite a few less forceful souls who just want to pray in peace, and not be hypocritically confronted while in church for minor infractions of this woman’s double standards. Just because she may have not had the proper nurturing in the past by others doesn’t give her a license to abuse people like this. If she has past hurts that are affecting her behaviour today then she ought to see a therapist to work them out.

No, we can’t change people, that’s true. But, we shouldn’t allow them to hurt others or cast a poor light on our faith by acting like this. This sort of behaviour drives people away from Church. It’s negative and destructive.
 
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