Recent Article: "Bible Writers Intended to Deceive"

  • Thread starter Thread starter ctlw83
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

ctlw83

Guest
Hello all,

I just stumbled across the following article and was wondering, what truth, if any, there is to this author’s claims and if so, what would be the best way to refute?

newsobserver.com/2011/02/06/968376/bible-writers-intended-to-deceive.html

I do know that some books of the bible may have been written by multiple authors, or transcribed by a writer and actually written by the author, I also know that in some cases things were added in later times to existing Gospel writings. However, to say that these things were done to intentionally deceive people into believing in Christ…I think that pushes it a bit…
 
Old argument repackaged.

What motive could they possibly have for making it up? Power? Heck no, they were being persecuted for centuries.
 
Hello all,

I just stumbled across the following article and was wondering, what truth, if any, there is to this author’s claims and if so, what would be the best way to refute?

newsobserver.com/2011/02/06/968376/bible-writers-intended-to-deceive.html

I do know that some books of the bible may have been written by multiple authors, or transcribed by a writer and actually written by the author, I also know that in some cases things were added in later times to existing Gospel writings. However, to say that these things were done to intentionally deceive people into believing in Christ…I think that pushes it a bit…
i wouldn’t listen to them, the historical method I think gets many things wrong about scripture, becuase many of the strategies they use to study the bible is bad.

one thing they do is they take alittle section of a book and compare it to another section and they go like these have differences in styles of writing so it must be by two Arthur, but that doesn’t really work becuase even in some of today’s writings you see differences like that.

also I think its important to look at the church fathers on issues like this, becuase when you look at their stuff you can easily refute what these people claim. The Q source is a classic example, some historians believe there was a Q source becuase of similarities between the 4 gospels but no Q source has been found to exist no trace through history and people who actually knew the gospel writers mentioned nothing of a Q source.

Plus if the Bible writers intended to Deceive we might as well not be a part of religion and the entire idea of Christianity and Judaism would be false and no one should follow.

The main reason for this is simply because if the bible writers are deceiving us then we can’t take any theological claim by any christian seriously becuase we couldn’t be sure if what they claim was based on a deception or a truth.

I also think you can look at some of the evidences that exist of the biblical times of Jesus. I can only think of a couple but i’m sure there are plenty of examples, but if biblical writers intended to deceive then these evidences probably wouldn’t exist.

I don’t think these guys are anywhere near what the intent was of the Bible writers.
 
Hello all,

I just stumbled across the following article and was wondering, what truth, if any, there is to this author’s claims and if so, what would be the best way to refute?

newsobserver.com/2011/02/06/968376/bible-writers-intended-to-deceive.html

I do know that some books of the bible may have been written by multiple authors, or transcribed by a writer and actually written by the author, I also know that in some cases things were added in later times to existing Gospel writings. However, to say that these things were done to intentionally deceive people into believing in Christ…I think that pushes it a bit…
The only deception (mostly self) is in Ehrman’s line of (un)reasoning. I consider Bart Ehrman to be a modern day equivalent to Origen or Tertullian. ONLY in the respect that, as I understand it, his earlier writings were more in line with authentic Christian teaching and his later writings have trailed off into Jesus Seminar land, i.e. out and out heresy.

Pax,
++N
 
Here’s some of the Church Fathers on the Gospels,

Tertullian of Carthage-(150-220) “We affirm, first of all, that thesource of proof which the Gospels furnish indicates the Apostles to be their own authors….I maintain that this Gospel of Luke existed from the beginning of its publication in the Apostolic churches and in all those which were united to them through a common bond of faith, while that of Marcion was unknown to most of the congregations and if known by any was bitterly condemned. The same authority of the Apostolic churches also supports the other Gospels which we possess through them and after them…namely the Gospels of John and Matthew as well as the Gospel of Mark which is designated as that of Peter whose interpreter was Mark.” (Against Marcion, book 4. 5)

St. Iranaeus of Lyons in Gaul (140-202)
“Matthew published his Gospel among Hebrews and in their own language at the time when Peter and Paul were preaching the glad tidings in Rome and founding the church there. After departure Mark also, the pupil and interpreter of Peter, has given us what has been preached. Luke, however, a companion of Paul, has chronicled in his work the Gospel as it was preached by that Apostle. After that John, the disciple of the Lord, who was reclining on his breast, published his Gospel while he was residing at Ephesus in Asia”- (A.H. III 1.1)

Origen of Alexandria in Egypt (c. 185-254/255AD)
"learned from tradition concerning the 4 Gospels which alone are unquestionable in the Church of God under Heaven, that was first written that according to Matthew, who was once a tax collector, but afterwards the Apostle of Jesus Christ, who published it for those from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language. Secondly, that according to Mark, who wrote according to Peter’s instructions….Thirdly, that according to Luke, who wrote for those who from the Gentiles came to believe, the Gospel that was preached by Paul. After them all, that according to John.” (First commentary on Matthew, quoted by Eusebius in H.E. Bk VI 25 4-6)

Tatian (circa 120-180) was a writer who composed a book called “Diatesseron”, a harmony of the Gospels. He used all the Gospels to compose one continuous narrative of the Gospels. This was lost until 1888 when an Aarabic translation was found and edited by Ciasca. This is important because it shows that the texts of the Gospels of modern times are essentially the same as the ones that Tatian used when writing the Diatesseron around the middle of the 2nd century. Tatian first read the Gospels because of Justin Martyr, who converted him to Christianity. This means these Gospels go back to around 140 AD in Justin Martyr’s time. The first of the Gospels was written around 60-75AD, the period of time from 75-140 AD is too short of time for essential corruptions in the texts to come about.
 
From “The Handbook of Christian Apologetics” by Peter Kreeft

CONSPIRACY THEORY
Pascal points out that the human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery (Pascal, Pensees 322, 310). It’s a historical fact that no one, weak or strong, saint or sinner, Christian or heretic, ever confessed, freely or under pressure, bribe or even torture, that the whole story of the resurrection was a fake, a lie, a deliberate deception. Even when people broke under torture and denied Christ and worshipped Caesar, they never confessed such a thing. If they made up the story, they were the most creative, clever, intelligent fantasists in history, far surpassing Shakespeare or Dante. Fisherman’s “fish stories” are never that elaborate, convincing, life changing, or enduring. The disciples character argues strongly against such a conspiracy on the part of all of them, with no dissenters. They were simple, honest, common peasants and not cunning and convincing liars. They willingly died for their “conspiracy”. Nothing proves sincerity like martyrdom. The change in their lives from fear to faith, despair to confidence, confusion to certitude, runaway cowardice to steadfast boldness under threat of persecution, not only proves their sincerity but testifies to some powerful cause of it. Can a lie cause such transformation? Are truth and goodness such enemies that the greatest good in history – sanctity- has come from the greatest lie?
Aquinas says,” In the midst of the tyranny of the persecutors, an innumerable throng of people, both simple and learned, flocked to the Christian faith. In this faith there are truths proclaimed that surpass every human intellect; they pleasures of the flesh are curbed; it is taught that the things of the world should be spurned. Now, for the minds of mortal men to assent to those things is the greatest of miracles…This conversion of the world to the Christian faith is the clearest witness…… For it would be truly more wonderful than all signs if the world had been led by simple and humble men to believe such lofty truths, to accomplish such difficult actions, and to have such high hopes” (Summa Contra Gentiles I 6)

There could be no possible motive for such a lie. What did the conspirators get from their lie? They were hated, scorned, persecuted, excommunicated, imprisoned, tortured, exiled, crucified, boiled alive, roasted, beheaded, disemboweled and fed to lions. If the resurrection was a lie, the Jews would have produced the corpse and nipped this feared superstition in the bud. All they had to do was to go down to the tomb and get it. The Roman soldiers and leaders were on the side of the Jews, not the Christians’. The disciples could not have gotten away with proclaiming the resurrection in Jerusalem- same time, same place, full of eyewitnesses- if it had been a lie.

William lane Craig says, “The Gospels were written in such temporal and geographical proximity to the events they record that it would have been almost impossible to fabricate events… the fact that the disciples were able to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem in the face of their enemies a few weeks after the crucifixion shows that what they proclaimed was true, for they could never have proclaimed the resurrection (and been believed) under such circumstances had it not occurred. (Knowing the Truth about the Resurrection, ch. 6)

“If there had been a conspiracy, it would certainly have been unearthed by the disciples’ adversaries, who had both the interest and the power to expose any fraud. Common experience shows that such intrigues are inevitably exposed” (Knowing the Truth about the Resurrection)
 
The only deception (mostly self) is in Ehrman’s line of (un)reasoning. I consider Bart Ehrman to be a modern day equivalent to Origen or Tertullian. ONLY in the respect that, as I understand it, his earlier writings were more in line with authentic Christian teaching and his later writings have trailed off into Jesus Seminar land, i.e. out and out heresy.

Pax,
++N
Ehrman is not equivalent to Tertullian or Origen. Ehrman is a self-proclaimed agnostic, which neither Tertullian nor Origen were.
 
The Early church Fathers denounced the false Gospels and apocrypha (A) because the teachings in them were so contrary to Christian teaching and (B) they were not handed down to them from the apostles and apostolic fathers. Here are some examples of the fraudulent scriptures,
  1. The “Infancy Story of Thomas” (end of 2nd cent. A.D.)
    When this boy Jesus was five years old he was playing at the ford of a brook, and he gathered together into pools the water that flowed by, and made it at once clean… But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and (with it) dispersed the water which Jesus had gathered together. When Jesus saw what he had done he was enraged and said to him: “You insolent, godless dunderhead, what harm did the pools and the water do to you? See, now you shall also wither like a tree and shall bear neither leaves nor root nor fruit.” And immediately the lad withered up completely… After this again [Jesus] went through the village, and a lad ran and knocked against his shoulder. Jesus was exasperated and said to him: “You shall not go further on your way,” and the child immediately fell down and died. (Schneemelcher, New Testament Apocrypha, 1:444)
  2. The “Gospel of Thomas”: 114 Sayings of Jesus (2nd-4th cent. A.D.)
    Simon Peter said to them, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life.” Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Gospel of Thomas 114, Nag Hammadi Library, 138)
St. Irenaeus denounced the Gospel of Judas calling it “a fictitious history” (180 A.D.; Against Heresies 1.31.1; ANF 1.358)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem denounced “the Gospel of Thomas” because it was written by “Manicheans” and “camouflaged by the sweetness of its title”
(ca. 350 A.D.) (ca. 350 A.D.; Catechetical Lectures 4:36)

Serapion, Bishop of Syria denounced the “Gospel of Peter” as “false ascribed to him”
his reason was, “such were not handed down to us"
(Eusebius, Church History, 6:12)
 
Ehrman is not equivalent to Tertullian or Origen. Ehrman is a self-proclaimed agnostic, which neither Tertullian nor Origen were.
I don’t think he has always been so. Neither was Tertullian a Montanist at the beginning but that is where he ended up. Origen’s later works were anathematized at the second council of Constantinople. Which was the point of my comparison. I have read some of Ehrman’s earlier writings and liked them pretty well and I am VERY theologically conservative. What I remember upon encountering his more recent stuff is wondering if there were two different Bart Ehrmans because the more recent stuff was 180 degrees opposite from what I had read earlier. Perhaps it was only my personal perception and I considered that possibility as well. Thus the caveat in my original post; *“as I understand it.” *Perhaps I should have said my experience is etc.

Pax,
++N
 
I don’t think he has always been so. Neither was Tertullian a Montanist at the beginning but that is where he ended up. Origen’s later works were anathematized at the second council of Constantinople. Which was the point of my comparison. I have read some of Ehrman’s earlier writings and liked them pretty well and I am VERY theologically conservative. What I remember upon encountering his more recent stuff is wondering if there were two different Bart Ehrmans because the more recent stuff was 180 degrees opposite from what I had read earlier. Perhaps it was only my personal perception and I considered that possibility as well. Thus the caveat in my original post; *“as I understand it.” *Perhaps I should have said my experience is etc.

Pax,
++N
Right, Ehrman was not always an agnostic.

Tertullian and Origen were never agnostics. Yes, Tertullian later in his life became Montanist, but that does not dismiss the value and orthodoxy that his previous thought has contributed to the Christian tradition. And yes, some of Origen’s thoughts were condemned at the Council you note, but much of his teaching was later “rehabilitated” …meaning, while some of his speculations are indeed questionable, he’s also recognized by many as the greatest Christian theologian in the third century, and he made some undeniably important contributions to the Christian tradition.

Anyway…Ehrman is now, as he claims, an agnostic. Neither Tertullian nor Origen were ever such.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top