Recited Prayers?

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Reformed_Rob

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This is probably a common objection to Catholicism. I heard it the other day, and the guy I was talking to brought up Catholicism, I wasn’t the one to bring it up, but it led to a wonderful discussion about God and will lead to further Gospel conversations I’m sure. But, the objection and my question is:

**One thing I don’t like about Catholicism is that they recite these prayers they learn. Prayer is supposed to be a conversation with God, but if you just recite a pre planned prayer, then you’re not really being personal.
**
OK, lots of things can enter into this topic, but I just want to talk about the licitness/illicitness of reciting prayers, like doing a kata in karate. Well, Kata’s are beneficial, and help you when you actually spar. Anyways, back to prayer.

The prayer Christ gave to His disciples in Matthew 6, like, it shouldn’t be dull and dry to recite that (the “Our Father”). There are many wonderful prayers in Scripture, one of my favorites being Daniel’s prayer in Daniel 9. And I know that you don’t “have” to recite certain prayers just because you’re a Catholic. So please help me understand this. Thanks.
 
I guess I have to agree with the idea that if we just RECITE a prayer then I am not really being personal. However, if I say the pre-planned memorized prayer with my heart, soul, and mind truly meaning everything I say, How is that not personal?

Is saying I love you less personal because you use the same words everytime you say it to your spouse? Does a person have to come up with new words to say I love you or it means nothing? Now my husband certainly has new ways to SHOW me how he loves me, but I’ll never tire of the same old words. And I think that exemplifies Catholic belief. We show God we love Him in different ways, (good works) but we use the same old words, truly meaning them.
 
My .02,

I have been to a service where the participants did not believe in a ‘prescribed prayer.’

Nothing shows disunity quite like it.
The leader calls the people to prayer, and immediately everyone goes in their own direction.

Christ taught us prayer, Before then we were given the psalms. Are we to throw all of that away in favor of an arbitrary belief that all prayer must be a conversation with God?

Payer takes many forms. And each form has its place. Perhaps we should be greatful for them all rather then trying to discern wich is ‘correct.’

Z
 
OK, excellent!

It’s important to think through accusations like this, and to make proper distinctions. Like when someone says “I can have a personal relationship with God outside of church.” Well, yeah, but it’s through the church that God has ordained His Word to be preached and the Sacraments to be administered. That doesn’t rule out a “personal relationship.” Church should strengthen your personal relationship.

Thanks for the responses.

St. Francis de Sales says, in his “Introduction to the Devout Life” Chapter 10:

"… humble yourself before God, acknowledging that of yourself you can perform nothing which you propose, either in doing what is good or avoiding what is bad. And taking, as it were, your heart in your hands, offer it and all its desires to His Divine Majesty, entreating that He will take it under His protection, and strengthen it for His service, saying some such words as these: ‘O Lord, behold this poor weak heart, which through Thy grace has conceived some good desires, but, alas! is too wretched and feeble to carry them into effect unless Thou givest it Thy blessing, which I therefore ask, O loving Father, through the merits of Thy Son’s most precious Death, to whose honor I would dedicate this day, and all the rest of my life.’"

Wow, even if you pray that everyday, if it’s heartfelt then what’s wrong with that!! And consider, if you’re diligent enough to pray that (or whatever good prescribed prayer) daily, you’re probably going to be fervent enough to bring before the Lord, vocally or mentally, those things that are on your heart and pray freely, as it were, in your prayer time.
 
Anyone heard of the Pslams?
Recited in the Synagogues?
What about the pop christian song in fundie churches recited words aren’t they?
THe Jews have recited prayers. THe Our Father is a recited prayer given to us by Jesus

The thing is not to say these things in vain but in meditation.
whether it be music or prayer.

What is a little funny is that fundies are very protective of the pledge of allegiance of the US flag. If that isn’t recitation of words I don’t what it. It’s directed to the flag not God! And they are ok with that!:rolleyes:
 
Reformed Rob,

Here is something C.S.Lewis said to Malcolm and me from Letters to Malcolm:

“And this, you see, makes the choice between ready-made prayers and one’s own words rather less important for me than it apparently is for you. For me words are in any case secondary. They are only an anchor. Or, shall I say, they are the movements of a conductor’s baton: not the music. They serve to canalise the worship or penitence or petition which might without them-such as they are our minds- spread into wide and shallow puddles. It does not matter very much who first put them together. If they are our own words they will soon, by unavoidable repetition, harden into a formula. If they are someone else’s, we shall continually pour into them our own meaning.”

I have and do pray both ways and you can throw prayer “tongues” in there as well. I have found what C.S.Lewis said to be true for me as well. Even when I pray in tongues I hear the same words often repeated. Never fear, God hears our hearts.

Joanna
 
For me, as a Convert, one of the surprising things about learning to live like a Catholic has been discovering the rosary. Used contemplatively, reciting each word more calmly than the one before, while allowing the mind to rest lightly and meditatively upon the mystery, has opened a whole new way of being “personal.” I work very long days, and I try to spend an hour each day in meditative/contemplative prayer. Sometimes, I am just to tired to produce something original. For those times, a rosary is a great gift and sometimes leads me into a very rich sense of the presence of God. Five decades can take three quarters of an hour when a rosary is used truly meditatively.
 
There is always a danger that praying memorized prayers will degenerate into merely hypocritical lip service but the Church has always cautioned against this.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees and the scribes saying, “You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: `This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me…’” (Matt 15:7-8)

The Baltimore Catechism touches on this subject:
LESSON TWENTY-EIGHTH: ON PRAYER
303. Q. Is there any other means of obtaining God’s grace than the Sacraments?
A. There is another means of obtaining God’s grace, and it is prayer.
304. Q. What is prayer?
A. Prayer is the lifting up of our minds and hearts to God to adore Him, to thank Him for His benefits, to ask His forgiveness, and to beg of Him all the graces we need whether for soul or body.
305. Q. Is prayer necessary to salvation?
A. Prayer is necessary to salvation, and without it no one having the use of reason can be saved.
306. Q. At what particular times should we pray?
A. We should pray particularly on Sundays and holydays, every morning and night, in all dangers, temptations, and afflictions.
307. Q. How should we pray?
**A. We should pray:
  1. With attention;
  2. With a sense of our own helplessness and dependence upon God;
  3. With a great desire for the graces we beg of God;
  4. With trust in God’s goodness;
  5. With perseverance.
    **308. Q. Which are the prayers most recommended to Us?
    A. The prayers most recommended to us are the Lord’s Prayer, the Hail Mary, the Apostles’ Creed, the Confiteor, and the Acts of Faith, Hope, Love, and Contrition.
  6. Q. Are prayers said with distractions of any avail?
    A. Prayers said with willful distractions are of no avail.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “…it is the heart that prays. If our heart is far from God, the words of prayer are in vain.” (CCC, 2562)
 
Todd Easton:
The Baltimore Catechism touches on this subject:

LESSON TWENTY-EIGHTH: ON PRAYER
309. Q. Are prayers said with distractions of any avail?
A. Prayers said with willful distractions are of no avail.
Click to expand...
Scary. How many of us can honestly say that we are not frequently distracted during prayer. Makes prayer a much harder exercise. But perhaps with much greater reward.

I for one am glad for the written prayers. It is hard enough to focus without having to think of the next phrase or word in a non-rote prayer. I am also glad to have options. During adoration, in the quiet of the church, distractions are few, and I can silently converse with my God.

Another .02 duly deposited.

Z
 
the warning is against willful distractions, not unbidden and unwanted distractions, St. Teresa of Avila is the master on how to handle unwanted distractions. Willful distractions could be praying in ways, places, and times that invite distraction, knowing you will have an excuse to shorten or end your prayer time. I do it all the time, having TV or radio on in another room, trying to multi-task while praying LOH, trying to substitute reading a spiritual book for praying.
 
The apostles must have been aware of prayer as a personal conversation with God when they asked the Lord to teach them how to pray. Our Lord could also have given non specific guidelines like '"make sure your praise is more than your demand,(which I think is not altogether sincere; how do I praise God when I want Him to help my drowning child to be rescued :rolleyes: ) ask for virtues, pray for those who hurt you , etc. I think we should take Our Lord seriously in whatever he teaches us. We can never think better than him. I agree that prayer (whether recited or constructed) is of no avail except it is a filial outpouring of the heart in conversation with God.
 
On the vain repetition bit -

My mother minds two children 5 & 8. I see them for about a half hour when I come back from work before their mother picks them up and when I’m on holidays I bring the to the cinema/swimming or something. Anyway they always want to talk to me when I get in and they say the same thing over & over. E.G. boy says he played a football match & we talk how he did/score/passing etc. Five minutes later boy says he playing a football match & we have the same conversation. I think it’s sweet, he really wants to talk with a grown up but doesn’t have much to say & says the same thing over & over. Plus it’s a very important event for him thats why he keeps talking about it.

I think repetitive prayer is similar - we really want to talk to God but his mind/inteligence is so much greater than ours so we tell Him much the same thing (with some changes i.e. specifics of the day) over & over in order to maintain the conversation.
 
Everytime some Catholic recites a verse from Sacred Scripture in a prayer is that in ‘vain repitition?’ Everytime some protestant recites a verse in prayer from the KJV, etc. is that not ‘vain repitition?’ It is allready printed and God has allready heard it millions or billions of times before?

God does not mind hearing our prayers. God does not mind if we say a ‘prayer in a can’ (as I call them) or if it flows out with word combinations new to your prayers. With billions of people praying countless times throughout history can you truely say any prayer is new or unique?

What God wants is for us to worship and adore Him and adore Him alone! We can talk to Him and have a conversation with Him or we can pray (‘to ask’) to Him and ask for help or guidance. Everytime I speak with God it is not a prayer. I only pray to God when I ‘ask’ for something. When I converse with Him it is because He is my best friend. I talk to God often without praying to Him.
 
Sarah Jane:
Are Catholics Guilty of Vain Repetition?
Click to expand...
With a church membership as large as that of the Catholic church, I am sure some are. But that is all that could be said with a question that generally worded.

I think a good definition of ‘Vain Repitition’ would be in order to insure everyone is on the same page.

In the word Vain, we find the definition of uselessness, but there is also pride.

I know that there is a fair amount of repitition in Jewish worship, therefore Jesus himself used repititious prayers. Would it be safe to say that repitition in and of itself is not a bad thing? I would think so.

Perhaps we are being warned against using prayer as a means of bolstering our own ego.

How many Pentecostal services have we seen where each person tries to pray louder then the next…just so they could appear more devout.

.02 deposited.

Z
 
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