Reconciliation

[babochka]

Having scheduled “confession hours” or whatever is a Latinization that should be discouraged. It depersonalizes the Sacrament, and provides a temptation to introduce confessionals into our churches.

I’m really confused as to how scheduled “confession hours” is a Latinization and provides a temptation to introduce confessionals. It is simply a time that the priest sets aside to be available and focused on hearing confessions. It does not exclude other times and doesn’t somehow change the meaning and practice of the sacrament. We have a scheduled time for confessions, an hour before Sunday Divine Liturgy. Father generally hears confessions until 15-20 minutes before liturgy begins at 10:00. Our priest works a full-time outside job and would usually not be at the church if someone were to come by during the week. Having a scheduled time for confessions is helpful to everyone. On the other hand, if I were to ask him at a non-scheduled time if he had time for confession, I’m reasonably certain his answer would be that he always has time for confession.

 

[dvdjs]

Granting of course that in theory pastoral exceptions may be made when pragmatic purposes require it for a congregation’s spiritual good, having a “Reconciliation Room” is not proper.

It sounds a bit like a “neo-Latinization” - a deviation from tradition coming from the post-Vatican II experimentation in the Latin Church. At least they have an icon, though, which unfortunately is more than they can say at the local UGCC church here where we have confessionals, and confession is sometimes heard kneeling at a grill (without an icon) in the sacristy.

Kneelers with grills in the sacristy were in use before VII; whatever you might think this all sounds like, it is not post-VII neo-latinization.

(I don’t know whether the confessionals at the UGCC church have icons - I refuse to step foot inside them.)

How timely. Two men went to pray. One refused to set foot in the confessionals that “sounded like” post VII neo-latinizing experimentation. The other went in and wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

It’s a great game: “I spy something Latin”. It is great fun also to pronounce on the propriety of various customs practiced by the ritually unclean. (See also the untouchably awful thread on hymns.) Generally all that is offered is a firm sense of the righteousness of one’s own convictions. Generally there is no discussion of the history of authentic tradition (at least an accurate one), or organic development; and rarely is there a discussion of the significance of pastoral sensitivity (except to pooh-pooh it). Yet all three factors are discussed in the Liturgical Instructions from Rome that are regularly appealed to by the folks who consider themselves vostochniks even as they appeal to Roman dictates on what we are and should be doing.

Fascinating.

 

[Cecilianus]

Kneelers with grills in the sacristy were in use before VII; whatever you might think this all sounds like, it is not post-VII neo-latinization.

The term “Reconciliation Room” was unheard of before VII. If you’re going to have a confessional (as you SHOULD in the Roman Rite), call it what it is.

How timely. Two men went to pray. One refused to set foot in the confessionals that “sounded like” post VII neo-latinizing experimentation. The other went in and wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

I practice the Orthodox Faith. If that means walking over to the Ruthenian church where they administer the Sacrament of Confession properly and traditionally rather than asking for it at the UGCC parish where they don’t, then that’s what I’ll do. If I were to just blindly accept whatever **** is offered at the parish I happen to be at, then (a) I would never have transferred from the Roman Rite to the Byzantine, and (b) I would have remained Protestant and never became Catholic to begin with.

It’s a great game: “I spy something Latin”. It is great fun also to pronounce on the propriety of various customs practiced by the ritually unclean. (See also the untouchably awful thread on hymns.) Generally all that is offered is a firm sense of the righteousness of one’s own convictions. Generally there is no discussion of the history of authentic tradition (at least an accurate one), or organic development; and rarely is there a discussion of the significance of pastoral sensitivity (except to pooh-pooh it). Yet all three factors are discussed in the Liturgical Instructions from Rome that are regularly appealed to by the folks who consider themselves vostochniks even as they appeal to Roman dictates on what we are and should be doing.

Fascinating.

Again, whatever the rest of the world may happen to do, I will maintain the Orthodox Faith. If I were to have been complacent I would never have become Catholic much less Byzantine. But I want the truth and orthodoxy (right teaching/right glory) and I want all of it.

 

[BusterMartin]

Granting of course that in theory pastoral exceptions may be made when pragmatic purposes require it for a congregation’s spiritual good, having a “Reconciliation Room” is not proper. Confession should be heard in front of the iconostasis in the actual church.

Since this sacrament is new to me from an Eastern Church perspective, and I’m utterly ignorant in this realm right now, is there anywhere that actually documents this as a rule (or whatever term describes proper setup for Confession)?

 

[Cecilianus]

Since this sacrament is new to me from an Eastern Church perspective, and I’m utterly ignorant in this realm right now, is there anywhere that actually documents this as a rule (or whatever term describes proper setup for Confession)?

Probably, but that’s not the way we work - tradition is not transmitted through rules and laws the way it is the West, but rather through the Liturgy and tradition. Christianity isn’t a legislated religion for us; that’s why our Liturgy has remained unchanged for 17 centuries.

 

[smad0142]

Brothers and Sisters,

Let us not make tradition an idol. A terribly unfortunate trend that runs through the EC Forum is that anything that has not traditionally been an Eastern practice should be totally stamped out. The appeals to the Canons of Nicea and centuries old traditions are important, but they are not everything. For issues like Confessionals in Eastern Churches, we need to have a heart full of charity. I have heard people break down sobbing in confessionals as they bear their soul to God. That is simply something that is more easily dealt with in private. If the privacy of a confessional helps people come to God, it is much more important than a man-made tradition. Let us not forget, dear brothers and sisters, that the sedevacantists and the SSPX and the SSJ all left communion with the Church in order to uphold man-made traditions.

 

[dvdjs]

… that’s why our Liturgy has remained unchanged for 17 centuries.

Except that it hasn’t. Read Taft or Wybrew or just about anything.

 

[Formosus]

Probably, but that’s not the way we work - tradition is not transmitted through rules and laws the way it is the West, but rather through the Liturgy and tradition. Christianity isn’t a legislated religion for us; that’s why our Liturgy has remained unchanged for 17 centuries.

So are you suggesting that the Latin tradition is a “legislated religion”? I constantly read the stereotype that the west is just Roman legalism while us easteners are organic and mystical with no concept of obligated rules. If you think that the Latin tradition is just about rules and laws then perhaps you should take a second look. Further, the east has plenty of examples of rules and canons on a variety of matters. It’s not as black and white as its often made out on the internet.

Also, no the byzantine liturgy has not been unchanged for 1700 years. Otherwise why are there so many different recensions and uses even among the east slavic traditions, let alone the rest of the byzantine world.

 

[Sherry_G]

I’m a Roman Catholic, but I have been going now around once a month or so to my nearby Byzantine Greek Catholic Church as I really love Divine Liturgy. Just this Sunday I wanted to go to Confession, but none of the Roman Catholic Churches in my area offer Confession on Sundays…it’s normally Saturday evenings. Luckily, the GCC I go to has Reconciliation available before every Sunday DL as well as after every Sunday DL, so I was able to go there (first time for Reconciliation in an Eastern Church).

I guess my question is…is Sunday Reconciliation a common practice for Eastern Catholic Churches on the whole? I really wish Reconciliation was available at my RC Churches on Sundays before Mass as well but for some reason it isn’t.

YOu mention that you really wish reconciliation was available at your church, but it is not scheduled. However, did you try asking your parish priest if he could hear your confession before Sunday Mass? Unless he is coming in at the last minute (say from another parish, for example) most priests are at the church for a time prior to Mass time and will hear a confession if asked. I do it ocassionally and have never been turned down.

 

[Cecilianus]

Brothers and Sisters,

Let us not make tradition an idol. A terribly unfortunate trend that runs through the EC Forum is that anything that has not traditionally been an Eastern practice should be totally stamped out. The appeals to the Canons of Nicea and centuries old traditions are important, but they are not everything. For issues like Confessionals in Eastern Churches, we need to have a heart full of charity. I have heard people break down sobbing in confessionals as they bear their soul to God. That is simply something that is more easily dealt with in private. If the privacy of a confessional helps people come to God, it is much more important than a man-made tradition. Let us not forget, dear brothers and sisters, that the sedevacantists and the SSPX and the SSJ all left communion with the Church in order to uphold man-made traditions.

Sorry. Tradition is the Faith. In the East we do not receive our faith from manuals of dogmatic theology and compendia of papal decrees - we receive it from the Liturgy and from the services during the week (the Akathist, Great Vespers, etc.) We don’t improvise with the Faith handed down for us - you’ll never see people singing kumbaya with guitars at an Eastern Liturgy. This “terribly unfortunate trend” that you notice is precisely what we call “Eastern Catholicism”. The tremendous personal spiritual gain given to believers of the Roman Catholic practice is frankly irrelevant - we are who we are, and we have a duty before God to remain faithful to who we are rather than to become Roman Catholics. You will never see an Eastern Catholic insist on imposing our tradition on the West, even though there are many aspects to our Rite which are simply and inarguably intrinsically superior. Please do not try to introduce Latin practices into our Rite, even if they are intrinsically superior or more practical (and I certainly believe there are some). Both rites have produced thousands upon thousands of saints; they are certainly sufficient without syncretistic mixing.

 

[BusterMartin]

YOu mention that you really wish reconciliation was available at your church, but it is not scheduled. However, did you try asking your parish priest if he could hear your confession before Sunday Mass? Unless he is coming in at the last minute (say from another parish, for example) most priests are at the church for a time prior to Mass time and will hear a confession if asked. I do it ocassionally and have never been turned down.

No, I didn’t ask my parish priest. The reason is that I prefer not going to face-to-face unless I have to do so. If there is another option where I can go to Confession “behind the screen” then that is what I’ll do. In this case, that would mean going on Saturday evenings. This particular Sunday I felt the need to go, however, so knowing that either way (Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic) would be face-to-face, I went to the Byzantine Church which already had it scheduled.

 

[dvdjs]

Sorry. Tradition is the Faith

Traditiology made worse by an errant, inorganic sense of tradition.

 

[Cecilianus]

Traditiology made worse by an errant, inorganic sense of tradition.

How is my understanding of tradition inorganic?

Tradition has to develop organically (that’s why what the Roman Church did after Vatican II was such a deviation), and has to be organic to the culture in which it grows (why Latinizations in the Byzantine Church are an abomination, why attempts to infuse imitations of the Greek Rite into the Novus Ordo only make a mockery of our Rite, and why cross-fertilization between Rites is appropriate where it happened naturally - such as the Greek-looking art of pre-Renaissance Roman Catholics in Southern Italy, the love the Poles have for iconography, the Croatian Roman Catholics who said the Tridentine Mass in Slavonic, arguably * some private Roman Catholic devotions clung to by Ukrainians under persecution, and of course the entire existence of the Maronite Rite).

To be sure, minor and almost negligible developments have occurred. (And a couple major ones, like the iconostasis.) But our Liturgy is a fourth-century Liturgy. The Roman Rite currently has a liturgy which one can only honestly say is a 20th-century Liturgy; you will never be able to say that about the East.*

 

[smad0142]

Tradition and traditions are two different things. Tradition, capital T, are things that pertain to faith and morals from aposotolic times. Traditions, small t, are man-made things like having Confessions in a Confessional or in front of the icon. Small t traditions are not the Faith my dear friend.

 

[dvdjs]

How is my understanding of tradition inorganic?

Let’s start with “errant”.

But our Liturgy is a fourth-century Liturgy. The Roman Rite currently has a liturgy which one can only honestly say is a 20th-century Liturgy; you will never be able to say that about the East.

This type of writing is typically polemical trash. Perhaps, however, you mean something serious. The problem is that you don’t define a thing or provide any evidence that proves anything. I have a hard time seeing how, genuinely, if the NO is “a 20-th century Liturgy”, the Byzantine Liturgy is “fourth-century”. I suppose I could make up a few idiosyncratic criteria to pull that off, but it would just be a matter of cleverly defining terms. So I wonder when you write such things: are you merely repeating polemics or honest errors that you’ve read, are you engaging in polemics yourself, or do you have a interesting way of defining “liturgy” so as to make your claim cleverly true?

After that is clear, then it may be nice to talk about “tradition”. You don’t seem to take what is “handed down”, what is growing from at the tips, as tradition, but seem instead to to pick according to some other, unstated criteria. What are these criteria that you favor over what you see being practiced and “tradited” when you enter a parish?

It is not impossible that there are poor practices that need correction, but how do you tell - especially if you are open to the idea natural cross-fertilization? I think that the difference between rank hybridization and natural cross-fertilization is very difficult to discern. It takes, I think, and expert’s understanding of how tradition has developed, and how it has incorporated some local variations in the East. Even more difficult is the prediction of what, with scarcely more than a century in America, will ultimately prove to be the authentic, organic enculturation of Eastern Christianity here in what is now our indigenous culture. You seem certain, but your very certitude seems alien; it is not Eastern.

Finally what elements of “tradition” do you find comfortable in assimilating to “the faith”.
Does this include you verdict on, of all things, “Ave Maria”?

 

[KathleenElsie]

In our parish Reconciliation is available before and after all services. Also you caqn call and make an appointment. Sometimes Liturgy is late because so many people are in line LOL. God and Father are not in a hurry.