Reconciling demonic possessions and science: Possible or impossible

[thestudentAD]

I’ve gotten an interest in demonic possession cases lately and I’ve been wondering how we can reconcile the absolute and indisputable fact (from what I have seen on videos and in documentaries) that there is a malevolent force in this world that seeks to bring humanity, All of humanity down to the lowest and hottest depths of Hell itself
There is also the fact that we live in a universe that is expanding incredibly fast (Though that might change soon in thousands or millions of years) and there are other planets with (Possibly) aliens out there on these planets, along with all t hese other cosmological entities.
It seems to me… should we start throwing science and reason out the front door? Should we cast aside all that we’ve ever gained in science and just toss it out into the trash and go back to living in Medieval times when we were better in morals and theologically? I heard Gabrielle Amorth (now i’m starting to distrust him because . He said something along the lines of ‘science isn’t worth a jot!’ All the scientist ever does is rethink what god thought!’ To me, I thought science helped advance us technologically and medicinically, as well as maybe psychologically, along with agriculture and innovations. is there anything wrong with technology? with the advancements that we have made? How does one live with the fact that there’s an evil army of demons running loose around the world and that we have (points around to everything ) All this? I mean, i thought that with the latest innovations, creativity would expand a bit. i’m a science fiction author and I’m just not sure what to think about this.

 

[z_0101]

Please read up on St. Albert the Great Universal Doctor of the Church and his student St. Thomas Aquinas.

Neither of these great Saints tossed science and reason out the door. The truth is the truth and science cannot contradict the truths of the physical reality of the universe any more than our faith cannot contradict the spiritual reality of the universe; nor can they contradict each other upon the unbiased application of each to the other for they have but once source, God the Father. As such, these are as two sides of the same coin - as with a coin, there is no need for one side to reconcile the existence of the the other-side nor in doing so does such an act diminish the truth of either side.

There will be others along shortly to regale you with various philosophical points of view however I think these two quotes from St. Albert should start the fires nicely:

• I shall not conceal a science that was before me revealed by the grace of God; I shall not keep it to myself, for being afraid of attracting its curse. What worth is a concealed science; what worth is a hidden treasure? The science I have learned without fiction I transmit with no regret. Envy upsets everything; an envious man cannot be fair before God. Every science and knowledge proceeds from God. Saying it proceeds from the Holy Ghost is a simple way of expressing oneself. No one can thus say Our Lord Jesus Christ without implying Son of God our Father, by work and grace of the Holy Ghost. In the same manner this science cannot be separated from the One who has communicated it unto me.
  – The Compound of Compounds. The science Albertus is talking about is alchemy.
• In studying nature we have not to inquire how God the Creator may, as He freely wills, use His creatures to work miracles and thereby show forth His power; we have rather to inquire what Nature with its immanent causes can naturally bring to pass.
  – De Vegetabilibus (“On Vegetation”)

Personally: (I’ll not bother to attempt to back any of these up, the following is my personal opinion)
Are there malevolent forces at work, I think so; however, I don’t believe they can usually take direct action. Instead they pray upon our fallen natures - hence the need for at least weekly Mass, constant prayer, and monthly confession.

Do I believe in demonic possession and attachment: If after all due examination by medical and natural science no other reasonable causation can be determined then I am left with simple truth that the Holy Church trains Exorcists for a reason, that being, such things can and do occur.

When it comes to these recordings that are so popular in the media… I personally take them with a grain of salt. Some of it has to be scripted… look at the view points of some of the video. Eventually, someone is going to venture into something truly dark and evil… we’ll not see that on tv as either the people will not live to tell the tale, or the government will suppress the information as a national security secret.

:twocents:

 

[seagal]

I’ve gotten an interest in demonic possession cases lately and I’ve been wondering how we can reconcile the absolute and indisputable fact (from what I have seen on videos and in documentaries) that there is a malevolent force in this world that seeks to bring humanity, All of humanity down to the lowest and hottest depths of Hell itself

True demon possession, while real, is much rarer than popular movies or TV shows would have you believe. . The Enemy is certainly intent on luring us into his trap, but we dont need to be possessed to go down that road. Were usually quite willing to follow him because that road is much easier than the one to salvation.

It seems to me… should we start throwing science and reason out the front door? Should we cast aside all that we’ve ever gained in science and just toss it out into the trash and go back to living in Medieval times when we were better in morals and theologically?

Reason and science are not enemies of faith. Our scientific advancements are simply tools we can use, for good *or *evil. We tend to look back to previous times with rose-coloured glasses. Humans being the fallen creatures we have been corrupted by evil since Adam and Eve ate the apple. But we are also capable of great good.

How does one live with the fact that there’s an evil army of demons running loose around the world and that we have (points around to everything ) All this? I mean, i thought that with the latest innovations, creativity would expand a bit. i’m a science fiction author and I’m just not sure what to think about this.

Remember there are more **angelic **forces than demonic roaming the earth. Revelations 12:4 says only 1/3 of the stars of heaven were swept to the earth. Think of it: each one of us has a guardian angel to protect us. That’s about 7 Billion angels! Not to mention the ones God sends for his special missions

Remember, in the war between good and evil, Jesus has already won!

 

[Starrsmother]

I’ve gotten an interest in demonic possession cases lately and I’ve been wondering how we can reconcile the absolute and indisputable fact (from what I have seen on videos and in documentaries) that there is a malevolent force in this world that seeks to bring humanity, All of humanity down to the lowest and hottest depths of Hell itself
There is also the fact that we live in a universe that is expanding incredibly fast (Though that might change soon in thousands or millions of years) and there are other planets with (Possibly) aliens out there on these planets, along with all t hese other cosmological entities.
It seems to me… should we start throwing science and reason out the front door? Should we cast aside all that we’ve ever gained in science and just toss it out into the trash and go back to living in Medieval times when we were better in morals and theologically? I heard Gabrielle Amorth (now i’m starting to distrust him because . He said something along the lines of ‘science isn’t worth a jot!’ All the scientist ever does is rethink what god thought!’ To me, I thought science helped advance us technologically and medicinically, as well as maybe psychologically, along with agriculture and innovations. is there anything wrong with technology? with the advancements that we have made? How does one live with the fact that there’s an evil army of demons running loose around the world and that we have (points around to everything ) All this? I mean, i thought that with the latest innovations, creativity would expand a bit. i’m a science fiction author and I’m just not sure what to think about this.

My friend, you’ve gotten into an area that’s hard to argue. None of us us truly know what Satan is responsible for and what he can and can’t do except for God himself. No, I don’t think that returning to the Middle Ages is the answer–plus, face it, it isn’t going to happen. We should all have a healthy respect for Satan, but I can’t see living my life afraid of Satan’s (name removed by moderator)ut. Our God gave us the church and the sacraments and everything we need to make it to heaven and defeat Satan. We don’t have to get paranoid. We do need to live our faith–and trust Jesus. There is a simple prayer that I probably say 20 times a day. “Jesus, I am not worthy that you come into my house–say but the word and my soul shall be healed”. Have faith in God–better to have faith in Jesus than to live one’s life worrying about Saran! Try to live as well as you can–and then look to Jesus for ultimate salvation–as He told us to!

 

[ialsop]

It can be reconciled with science. But not physical science. Only spiritual science. Why? Because they are not physical, but spiritual.
And actually number of posessions is picking up lately.

 

[Starrsmother]

What you need to realize is that God is is in charge. God gave us minds because he knew and expected us to use them. If in the end, we discover that the “big bang” theory is correct, it doesn’t ultimately prove that God did not create everything according to His plan. We all pretty much know that the 7 day creation story is a metaphor!, However, if science should actually prove that God’s hand wasn’t involved in creation, wouldn’t you want to know the truth–as awful as that thought is? Did God create big bang if that was the beginning? People should not be afraid of science. If science can prove that there is no God, then we all need to pull our heads out of the sand and re-think. But to me, every time there’s a new scientific discovery, it just proves to me again and again that God had His hand in it from day one! God IS nature and nature is a product of our God!

 

[CaptainPicard]

What about science and demonic possession do you think needs reconciling? How do the two conflict?

 

[EasterJoy]

Please calm down.

Science is not in opposition to morals. It is an inquiry into how God made the natural world. Making science into a god or as a means for humans to become gods, manipulating whatever they want in whatever way they want, regardless of the consequences? That is in opposition to morals. This is not a necessary result of scientific inquiry, however.

People still committed mortal sins in medieval times. People have also sometimes wrongly concluded that a physical disorder was due to supernatural forces when it was not; this happens more often when people are more ignorant of the natural world. When suffering can be understood as a natural force and relieved by the natural means (meaning within the capacity of human beings to manipulate) that God put at the disposal of moral physicians or scientists, it is a positive good to learn about those means and relieve that suffering. When suffering or the danger of unprovided death can be avoided or lowered by intelligent use of the natural world, that is a good thing, whether it is in practicing medicine, designing a road, or forecasting the weather. These can be positive means of serving God, and are things that faithful Christians might easily discern as their life’s work.

 

[thestudentAD]

easterjoy
I don’t know if this is relevant and some people talk about this: would humans living on other worlds be acceptable in those terms as well? or is it just stay on Earth and maybe God will let us run around off Earth in the World to Come?

 

[EasterJoy]

easterjoy
I don’t know if this is relevant and some people talk about this: would humans living on other worlds be acceptable in those terms as well? or is it just stay on Earth and maybe God will let us run around off Earth in the World to Come?

This might interest you:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802629.htm

• Father Funes said it was difficult to exclude the possibility that other intelligent life exists in the universe, and he noted that one field of astronomy is now actively seeking “biomarkers” in spectrum analysis of other stars and planets.

These potential forms of life could include those that have no need of oxygen or hydrogen, he said. Just as God created multiple forms of life on earth, he said, there may be diverse forms throughout the universe.

“This is not in contrast with the faith, because we cannot place limits on the creative freedom of God,” he said.

“To use St. Francis’ words, if we consider earthly creatures as ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters,’ why can’t we also speak of an ‘extraterrestrial brother?’” he said. *

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

True demon possession, while real, is much rarer than popular movies or TV shows would have you believe. . The Enemy is certainly intent on luring us into his trap, but we dont need to be possessed to go down that road. Were usually quite willing to follow him because that road is much easier than the one to salvation.
!

Is it rarer? There is an uptick in exorcisms especially in France and Italy.
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10550800/Rise-of-the-exorcists-in-Catholic-Church.html

 

[seagal]

Is it rarer? There is an uptick in exorcisms especially in France and Italy.
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10550800/Rise-of-the-exorcists-in-Catholic-Church.html

A quote from the same article

The Church insists that the majority of people who claim to be possessed by the Devil are suffering from a variety of mental health issues, from paranoia to depression. Priests generally advise them to seek medical help.

But in a few cases, it is judged that the person really has been taken over by evil, and an exorcism is required.

**The need for exorcisms is “rare, very rare”, **said Fr Vincenzio Taraborelli, a priest in a church which lies just a few hundred yards from the Vatican. “In the cases where a mental illness is apparent, we try to send them to a doctor.”

 

[EasterJoy]

Is it rarer? There is an uptick in exorcisms especially in France and Italy.
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10550800/Rise-of-the-exorcists-in-Catholic-Church.html

Demonic possession is, as they say in medicine, a diagnosis of exclusion. Other causes need to be ruled out before a possession is concluded to be the cause of odd behavior or unusual phenomena. In Our Lord’s case, of course, he could know immediately what the diagnosis was. If he said it was a possession and treated it as a possession, it was indeed a possession. When it was an sickness, instead, that is the way he treated it and talked about it. It is rare for someone to be given the gift of discerning that immediately.

 

[heidi_storage]

I think we should keep in mind, too, that both demonic possession and mental illness are works of the devil–that is, we are subject to sin, suffering, and death as a result of living in a fallen world. Simply having an ailment explainable by medical science does not take away from the fact that it is still a Bad Thing (though of course, all trials can be used for the glory of God).

Naturally, it is very important to distinguish properly what sort of treatment someone needs–I would not want to see an exorcism used to cure schizophrenia. But the Catholic Church, and most other reputable Christian denominations, do approach any supposed demonic possession with a healthy degree of skepticism.

 

[theCrow]

The devil made me do it - the excuse that will never actually excuse you of any of your actions.

 

[Starrsmother]

True–but just as a leper may be a leper because original sin caused these things to enter our world yet we all now know that the leper is not personally guilty of being cursed because of what is now a curable disease, I believe that God in His mercy–knows whether a person does something because he is mentally ill vs just plain evil. I trust in God to make the differentiation!