Redemptive Suffering, do protestants take advantage of this?

[Loboto-Me]

As Catholics we offer up our suffering for sake of ourselves and the sake of others, often in reparation for our sins or the sins of the world. Do protestants do this?

Does reparartion have any part in the protestant world?

What about sacrifices? Even if a protestant isn’t suffering “naturally”, do protestants make sacrifices?

 

[TriuneUnity]

As Catholics we offer up our suffering for sake of ourselves and the sake of others, often in reparation for our sins or the sins of the world. Do protestants do this?

Does reparartion have any part in the protestant world?

What about sacrifices? Even if a protestant isn’t suffering “naturally”, do protestants make sacrifices?

Suffering is a key aspect of Christian theology, and every Christian denmination will have some tradition that reflects it. Within the Lutheran tradition, suffering is seen as a mask that God hides Himself under. He makes Himself known through the weakness of His followers and it’s there that He demonstrates His greatest love and power. Incidentally that is one of the reasons that the gospel is seen as foolish to the pagan world, because it’s power is in suffering.

However, we do not call the suffering of Christ’s followers redemptive, because Jesus did all the redemptive suffering for sin necessary for us and our salvation. However, we suffer to make Jesus’ suffering manifest to the world (as Paul says).

As for sacrifices… we are to offer up ourselves as sacrifices to God.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Thank you TriuneUnity for explaining the difference in the Lutheran tradition.

Are you talking about Paul in this verse?

**Colossians 1:23b-24 **
…whereof I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for His body, which is the church

I don’t quite understand your statement that you offer yourselves as a sacrifice to God rather than do sacrificial actions.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Thank you TriuneUnity for explaining the difference in the Lutheran tradition.

Are you talking about Paul in this verse?

**Colossians 1:23b-24 **
…whereof I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for His body, which is the church

Yes. What was “lacking” in Christ’s afflictions was the future suffering of all who (like Paul) will experience great affliction for the sake of the gospel, as Paul described, e.g., in 2 Cor. 1:8–10. (Cf. Phil. 2:30, where Paul tells the Philippians that Epaphroditus risked his life “to complete [Gk. anaplēroō] what was lacking [Gk. hysterēma] in your service to me”.) Paul’s sufferings are the means God uses to extend the message of the gospel to others. In a very real way, our suffering does the same exact thing.

I don’t quite understand your statement that you offer yourselves as a sacrifice to God rather than do sacrificial actions.

Rom 12:1: I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Eph 5:2: And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

1 Pet 2:5: you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Sacrificial language from the OT is used to denote the new life of Christians, and this means that the word bodies here refers to Christians as whole persons, for both body and soul belong to God. They are a living sacrifice, meaning that they are alive from the dead since they enjoy new life with Christ. “Living” also means that they will not be put to death as OT animal sacrifices were, for Christ has fulfilled what was predicted by those sacrifices. Whereas OT worship focused on offering animal sacrifices in the temple, Paul says that spiritual worship in a broad sense now includes offering one’s whole life to God. While the literal offerings of the OT system have been done away with in Christ, the principle behind them of costly devotion to God remains.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am wondering about this myself. We as Catholics share in the redemptive suffering of Jesus by taking up our cross and following Him. Life is no bowl of cherries. A priest once told me that if he is not suffering about something, he knows he is doing wrong.

Accepting the crosses Christ gave us is our way to heaven. The crucified Lord is the bridge to the Heavenly Father in heaven.

But the Lord speaks to us all the time about all His goodness, so to accept joy with the Cross is another feat of daily life.

My daughter married a fundamentalist. The mother was very kind to come to our Mary’s Flower Garden Mother’s Day luncheon last year, where we honored Mary. I was nervous. But the presentation was very solid and she came out understanding how we relate to Mary from the inside line, not the outside spin.

However, the young couple is having a hard time economically like so many others. The son lost his teaching job. So she keeps quoting a bible quote but I come from the angle ‘let’s talk about it’…to let’s look at getting some more education…and so on, and it appears negative, when I am trying to face reality, its limitations, but in it to find out where there is an opening. I will try to start a conversation with her regarding a personal experience that was negative but then had a silver lining and she can’t deal with it. So I don’t say much now but let her do all the talking …and preaching. I don’t think she deals with suffering in the same way I do, and it is hard to converse.

This is sounding like a letter to Dear Abby or something. But I think it reflects my experience with evangelicals…I think she told me she is a follower of a Rev Copeland, I remember hearing his name but don’t know anything about him or his spirituality.

 

[Loboto-Me]

I agree, we must be spiritual sacrifices to God, but what about corporal and mental sacrifices? Are we not to unite with Jesus’ passion on the cross?

In uniting with Jesus on the cross, christians are gifted with helping others in a very real way. With His passion, we can reach the world in healing others much easier than priests, doctors, and other corporal healers.

When I suffer, rather than waste it I try to remember this prayer or a similar prayer “Use this pain my Jesus in union with your passion for the salvation of (fill in the blank)” This not only helps the one we pray for but also the one who’s suffering to accept and delight in their pain for His sake and for the sake of the one prayed for.

As Catholics we emulate Jesus in every way possible, including redemptive (corporal) suffering.

Kathleen,

I’m so sorry for the troubles your family is going through.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I agree, we must be spiritual sacrifices to God, but what about corporal and mental sacrifices? Are we not to unite with Jesus’ passion on the cross?

I think that that is certainly a part of it. If we are to offer spiritual sacrifices to God, giving to the poor and needy, caring for our neighbors, etc., that is all ways in which we please God. The difference is why we do it and how we go about it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Maybe you can answer this for me, Triune. I was always curious what the Lutheran interpretation is regarding when Paul said words to the effect that he makes up for what was lacking in Christ’s sacrifice. I know the Catholic view on it, what is yours? Just curious because I like to know all sides.

I think that that is certainly a part of it. If we are to offer spiritual sacrifices to God, giving to the poor and needy, caring for our neighbors, etc., that is all ways in which we please God. The difference is why we do it and how we go about it.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Maybe you can answer this for me, Triune. I was always curious what the Lutheran interpretation is regarding when Paul said words to the effect that he makes up for what was lacking in Christ’s sacrifice. I know the Catholic view on it, what is yours? Just curious because I like to know all sides.

Sure, gurney. I addressed it a little bit above, in my second reply to the OP.

All Christians suffer with Christ (2 Tim. 3:12; Rom. 8:17) as part of their service to Christ. Baptism connects us to Christ - both to His sufferings and to His salvation (Col. 2:12, Rom. 6:3-8, Phil. 3:10). Paul gladly accepted suffering for the sake of the Gospel (Phil. 2:17) and believed that it brought benefits to the Church (2 Cor. 1:5-7, 4:10-12, Eph. 3:13). Christ, who is seated at the right hand of God, no longer suffers. We, however, present Christ’s sufferings to others around us when we suffer. That is the best sense of the word translated as “lacking,” because it completes Christ’s suffering for whoever sees us suffer.

 

[who0Oshhh]

As Catholics we offer up our suffering for sake of ourselves and the sake of others, often in reparation for our sins or the sins of the world. Do protestants do this?

Kind of, but not really.

Does reparartion have any part in the protestant world?

Not really. Maybe a little bit. But in a different way.

What about sacrifices? Even if a protestant isn’t suffering “naturally”, do protestants make sacrifices?

This is a really good read that should give you an idea of what’s going on. desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bfac/bfac.pdf

I have my own idea of which parts are most relevant to this topic, and I think there’s a good chance you’d choose some of the same things. I’d recommend changing the size to about 85%.

I would read the preface, and the intro is probably worth reading too. Page 15 has a quote from Joseph Tsion that I think is pretty important. But the most relevant material probably starts on page 19. And then on p. 24, it talks about “filling up Christ’s afflictions with our afflictions” and gets into exactly how that works.

After that, it goes in depth on three different guys. The first is William Tyndale. As a Catholic, you might consider skipping over that one. After that, I would suggest skimming for relevant sections. Most of what you’re looking for is probably in the first 30 pages or so of the pdf. However, in the section on Paton, page 53 has a section about “baptism in the blood of the martyrs.” Then on p. 85 in the section on Judson, there’s a section called “the fruit of his affliction.” Then on p. 108, there’s the conclusion. “The Momentary Affliction For Eternal Glory.” I think that’s pretty relevant in its entirety.

Take a look and see if any of that helps you put something together. Let me know what you come up with.