Regarding intimacy between couple unable to marry

[sugarytwinkle]

Today I’ve been faced with a very difficult question for me to answer when I was explaining my beliefs in the area of love, sex and marriage to my friends, so I was wondering if anybody else could shed any light on what the Church teaching might be in this specific scenario.

I know a young couple, 17 and 19 years old who neither consider themselves to be affiliated with any faith (although the girl - S. - was brought up Methodist) but who have a very beautiful relationship and have dated for many years chastely because they haven’t felt it necessary or been “ready”. However, S. has had many health problems over the years and has recently had a confirmation from those in the medical profession that she will be lucky to get another full six months. Obviously, she is looking to live every day to the fullest despite her physical weakness because she doesn’t have long left but despite this, her parents will not let her marry an atheist - and parental consent is required by law. The boy, C, has tried to reason but with no luck. Even before the diagnosis the two of them had wanted to marry and have a family, but now it is not possible.

The questions here are:

1. Would it be a sin for them to engage in unmarried sex for the purpose of bonding and expressing love even in the knowledge of the situation that S is in? They have the prerequisites of being open to creating life and intent of strengthening the marital bond but without actually have been able to be bound legally or in the church.
2. Would S die in a state of mortal sin and be likely to go to hell for expressing her love in this way?
3. Later in the line where would C stand morally if he were to marry another woman?

I really can’t decide where this stands on a moral level, or in line with Catholic teaching. I understand and agree that the basic principal is don’t have sex unless you’re married but knowing this couple, it is very difficult to say that when their relationship is so beautiful, nothing like that of many young couples nowadays and in such a dreadful situation. It’s difficult to defend the faith - especially when they have the notion that by saying anything is a sin they are going to be condemned by the Pope to burn in hell for eternity with no second chances… something I should really set right sometime.

Thank you for your help.

 

[vsedriver]

1. Would it be a sin for them to engage in unmarried sex for the purpose of bonding and expressing love even in the knowledge of the situation that S is in? They have the prerequisites of being open to creating life and intent of strengthening the marital bond but without actually have been able to be bound legally or in the church.

Unmarried sex is a sin no matter what the situation. As neither of these people are Catholics they are not required to follow Catholic teaching. They could elope to a state that allows 17 yr olds to marry.

1. Would S die in a state of mortal sin and be likely to go to hell for expressing her love in this way?

If she disobeyed her parents she would be guilty of breaking the 4th Commandment. Unmarried sex is a mortal sin and dying in a state of mortal sin does make it more likely that you will go to hell. Is having sex so important that it is worth risking eternal death?

1. Later in the line where would C stand morally if he were to marry another woman?

all marriages end with the death of the spouse. A widow or widower is free to remarry.

It’s difficult to defend the faith - especially when they have the notion that by saying anything is a sin they are going to be condemned by the Pope to burn in hell for eternity with no second chances… something I should really set right sometime.

The Pope doesn’t condemn anyone. Only God judges. So these young people need to ask themselves… do they want to obey God’s law or indulge themselves? I know this may sound harsh and difficult but it all comes down to deciding whether or not we want to do God’s will or our own. When we choose God’s will, He then knows us and welcomes us into his Kingdom. When we choose our will we are essentially tell God he isn’t necessary to our lives. God respects that decision and removes himself from our presence. We are then left out in the cold and dark, wailing and nashing our teeth.

If they truly love each other they would want to remain chaste so as not to put the other into a state of sin.

 

[fpt]

Today I’ve been faced with a very difficult question for me to answer when I was explaining my beliefs in the area of love, sex and marriage to my friends, so I was wondering if anybody else could shed any light on what the Church teaching might be in this specific scenario.

I know a young couple, 17 and 19 years old who neither consider themselves to be affiliated with any faith (although the girl - S. - was brought up Methodist) but who have a very beautiful relationship and have dated for many years chastely because they haven’t felt it necessary or been “ready”. However, S. has had many health problems over the years and has recently had a confirmation from those in the medical profession that she will be lucky to get another full six months. Obviously, she is looking to live every day to the fullest despite her physical weakness because she doesn’t have long left but despite this, her parents will not let her marry an atheist - and parental consent is required by law. The boy, C, has tried to reason but with no luck. Even before the diagnosis the two of them had wanted to marry and have a family, but now it is not possible.

The questions here are:

1. Would it be a sin for them to engage in unmarried sex for the purpose of bonding and expressing love even in the knowledge of the situation that S is in? They have the prerequisites of being open to creating life and intent of strengthening the marital bond but without actually have been able to be bound legally or in the church.
2. Would S die in a state of mortal sin and be likely to go to hell for expressing her love in this way?
3. Later in the line where would C stand morally if he were to marry another woman?

I really can’t decide where this stands on a moral level, or in line with Catholic teaching. I understand and agree that the basic principal is don’t have sex unless you’re married but knowing this couple, it is very difficult to say that when their relationship is so beautiful, nothing like that of many young couples nowadays and in such a dreadful situation. It’s difficult to defend the faith - especially when they have the notion that by saying anything is a sin they are going to be condemned by the Pope to burn in hell for eternity with no second chances… something I should really set right sometime.

Thank you for your help.

My humble thought:

According to the catholic rules, the minimum age of marriage for the woman is 14 year old and the minimum age of marriage for the man is 16 year old.

In this situation the danger of death in the 6 months because of huge medical issues (a great disease, a mortal disease), the secret religious marriage with only personnal effects would be possible, if and only if some conditions were present (see with a catholic priest, see the canon law, see the catholic praxis of this special type of marriage).

In the catholic moral, the parents have no moral power to oppose to the natural laws of marriage, morally speaking, they cannot use the the civil law or the penal law that are against the natural moral law of marriage, they do not have to act like tha: natural moral law of marriage is higher than the State law of marriage.

Can she (the girl friend) take an appointement with the methodist pastor for knowing if a secret religious marriage is possible in the methodist confession (religion).

The marriage in the other State that is respecting the natural rights of this young woman.

The simple fact of wanting to marry a person of the other sex without and / or against the agreement of parents, morally speaking and per se, is not sinful, he seems to me.
The simple fact of marrying a person of the other sex without and / or against the agreement of parents, morally speaking and per se, is not sinful, he seems to me.

The simple fact of making love without marriage, and against and / or without the agreement of parents, morally speaking and per se, is sinful, he seems to me, only as a sin of forcination: not more, not less. No sin against her parents, he seems to me.

 

[maltmom]

How terribly sad for this young couple. Are they in the UK as well? Is eloping somewhere else even possible in her condition?

I will pray for this young couple. I will also pray for the softening of her parents hearts. It would be a beautiful gift they could giver her daughter…her one and only love. How sad that they don’t see this.

 

[The_Idiot]

If the Couple referred to in the post are in the England , neither may marry without written parental consent , while under the age of 18.

In Scotland it is different - there providing both parties are over 16 they amy marry without parental consent .

 

[fpt]

A solution is **the catholic secret marriage under special conditions **(canon law of catholic church on the marriage). She is methodist, thus she is christian her conversion in catholicism, in emergency manner for getting, a real / truly catholic marriage, is not impossible. And him, Christian or not? His baptism is valid or not? Does he want to convert himself via the true conjugal love?

Is he ready for that? Is she ready for that?

 

[fpt]

If the parents, if the State law go against the natural moral law and do not respect the moral natural rights of this young man and of this young woman concerning the marriage, they have the natural right of getting a true natural marriage, in secret, because of special circumstances and thus to have marital sex without being in an immoral situation, and thus in respecting the natural plan of God for conjugal love.

The best one would be in a catholic marriage, even secret because of special circumtances (see, the canon law, ask to catholic priest or to a local catholic bishop, they have the powers coming from God for blessing a catholic secret marriage, with all effects on the donation of bodies). Thus, just after the marital act is morally permissible. If he is ready, if she is ready, if she is honest and if he is honest , the natural marriage in secret, should be possible very quick. Does he wants really that? Does she want really that ? Does he know his obligations, his dutie, her rights? Does she know her obligation, her duties, her rights?
Does they want get a mutual and reciprocal conversion of each one of their heart, of their soul by their own will???

May be the best solution for having conjugal graces and getting a miracle for her and for their couple. Are they ready for that.

 

[The_Idiot]

The 16yr old cannot get married legally in England without written consent from the parents - this makes any secret marriage illegal in law.

No clergy , Catholic or Protestant can marry them.

The only way they can marry legally is to go to Scotland and stay there for 3 weeks to satisfy legal requirements , and then marry.

 

[fpt]

The 16yr old cannot get married legally in England without written consent from the parents - this makes any secret marriage illegal in law.

No clergy , Catholic or Protestant can marry them.

The only way they can marry legally is to go to Scotland and stay there for 3 weeks to satisfy legal requirements , and then marry.

As catholic, my thought is catholic. If you read canon code of catholic church on catholic marriage that by nature is nature, there are special dispositions for the emergency.

Morally speaking, the catholic clergy must respect the canon law, the natural moral law and the catholic doctrine of marriage: not more not less. As catholic, I have the right to defend the natural right of this young woman.

The topic was on how to make love between them without sinnind by forcination:

the solution is the natural moral marriage in secret, or the catholic marriage in secret.

As catholic I do not care of the legality of civil marriage because the marriage was invented before society per se, by nature the marriage is a natural contract and a natural institution, it is like that. In their situation, special circumstances, the secret marriage is possible even if it is illegal in UK.

**Do you know the story of Saint Valentine who was the protector of marriage? **

 

[The_Idiot]

Since in the UK a Civil Ceremony/ licence is not required, as the various Churches carry out marriages acting on behalf of the State as regards the Civil act , and before it the couple have to state that there is no known reason which would prevent them being legally married ie proclamation of Bans , as it is known ] and anyone may put forward an objection should they know of one , in this case one is under age ] .

In France you may not care for the legality of the marriage - but in the UK should the marriage take place in secret , should the parents hear of it they can call upon the Law - have the underage child declared a Ward of Court and if necessary contact with the boy could be legally forbidden .

I repeat - if the girl is fit to travel they could go to Scotland - but they will need to live there for 3 weeks to establish residence I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know if they can get a ‘special licence’ without residence ]

 

[fpt]

Since in the UK a Civil Ceremony/ licence is not required, as the various Churches carry out marriages acting on behalf of the State as regards the Civil act , and before it the couple have to state that there is no known reason which would prevent them being legally married ie proclamation of Bans , as it is known ] and anyone may put forward an objection should they know of one , in this case one is under age ] .

In France you may not care for the legality of the marriage - but in the UK should the marriage take place in secret , should the parents hear of it they can call upon the Law - have the underage child declared a Ward of Court and if necessary contact with the boy could be legally forbidden .

I repeat - if the girl is fit to travel they could go to Scotland - but they will need to live there for 3 weeks to establish residence I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know if they can get a ‘special licence’ without residence ]

I understand your speech about the legal system in England about the marriage. But, for a catholic, **the natural moral law and the canon law are most important than the civil law and the penal law. **

Saint Valentine was the protector of marriage, he decided to celebrate marriages for soldiers** against the laws of empire.** **There is a superiority of natural moral law on the State law, it is like that. **

**Under the English law, can she go to Scotland without the agreement of one of her parents, or against their will? There is emergency, 6 months. **

A true catholic priest has to respect the canon law and the natural moral law, under special conditions for secret marriage, in taking the risk to have penal issues. It is a catholic moral obligation to protect the marriage and the rights of persons.

The catholicism has to protect the marriage, the future spouses, the wife and the husband.

 

[fpt]

Since in the UK a Civil Ceremony/ licence is not required, as the various Churches carry out marriages acting on behalf of the State as regards the Civil act , and before it the couple have to state that there is no known reason which would prevent them being legally married ie proclamation of Bans , as it is known ] and anyone may put forward an objection should they know of one , in this case one is under age ] .

In France you may not care for the legality of the marriage - but in the UK should the marriage take place in secret , should the parents hear of it they can call upon the Law - have the underage child declared a Ward of Court and if necessary contact with the boy could be legally forbidden .

I repeat - if the girl is fit to travel they could go to Scotland - but they will need to live there for 3 weeks to establish residence I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know if they can get a ‘special licence’ without residence ]

In France, the civil marriage is necessary before the religious marriage. But, it is only the priest who can be punished by penal law if and only if the marriages are celebrated by him in a habitual manner, that means two marriages. The habits begins after one.

One marriage cannot be punished by the penal law. Two yes.