Reincarnation and Matthew 17

[Colmeia]

I have struggled with some Kardecists about faith and religion. One of the arguments in favor of reincarnation that I’ve heard a lot and very little or nothing about how refute it are the verses in Matthew 17 in which Jesus, brought some of his disciples to a mountain, seeing Elijah and Moses. The biggest problem here for me is the interpretation of that verse:

Matthew 17:13

“Then the disciples saw that he was talking to them of John the Baptist.”

They primarily use this passage to force the argument of reincarnation, which, of course, is not acceptable to us Catholics. They say that John the Baptist is Elijah reincarnated etc. What better interpretation and response I can give to these interpretations? How can I effectively combat the arguments of kardecism and how can I promote an apologetic fairly consistent about that? Where I live there is a great amount of people from kardecism or who mix Catholicism with those beliefs, so there is a great need I do have of knowing the enemy to fight him. Thank you all, peace and well!

 

[Aussieman88]

My take on it was that John the Baptist had the ‘mantle’ of elijah. Just as elisha asked for twice the mantle of elijah. John the Baptist had the mantle of elijah. Matthew 11-14 Jesus states that John the baptist was Elijah as well as in matt 17; 12.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

How can this verse be reconciled with reincarnation?

 

[Cachonga]

I would first turn to where the birth of John was foretold
Luke 1:12-17 (RSV):

And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth; for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. . And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

Note that verse 17 says that John will go before Jesus (the Messiah) in the “spirit and power of Elijah”. I would next go to the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt 17 and Mark 9). Note here that Peter, James and John recognized Elijah, not John the Baptist (I would think they knew what John the Baptist looked like more than Elijah). I would point out that Elijah was taken up alive into heaven (2 King 2). Heb 9:27 says, And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment," (RSV).

If you want one more argument (though not as clear), you can point to the two witnesses in Rev. Tradition tells us that one of them is Elijah. The other is believed to be either Moses or Enoch (personally, I lean toward Enoch, since, like Elijah, he was taken alive into heaven, whereas Moses died).

Hope this helps!

Pax!

 

[Colmeia]

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

How can this verse be reconciled with reincarnation?

I would first turn to where the birth of John was foretold

Note that verse 17 says that John will go before Jesus (the Messiah) in the “spirit and power of Elijah”. I would next go to the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt 17 and Mark 9). Note here that Peter, James and John recognized Elijah, not John the Baptist (I would think they knew what John the Baptist looked like more than Elijah). I would point out that Elijah was taken up alive into heaven (2 King 2). Heb 9:27 says, And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment," (RSV).

If you want one more argument (though not as clear), you can point to the two witnesses in Rev. Tradition tells us that one of them is Elijah. The other is believed to be either Moses or Enoch (personally, I lean toward Enoch, since, like Elijah, he was taken alive into heaven, whereas Moses died).

Hope this helps!

Pax!

About Heb 9:27 I have quoted this passage, but the argument I got was that what we see is the death of the body itself. The soul, on the other hand, would remain indefinitely until there was the divine judgment itself. With this, there would not be inconsistent for the reincarnation of souls during times almost endless. That was very hard for me to answer; I actually had no answer. What would you say in my place?

Also, I’m interested in start reading The Spirits Book, trying to find each point of this false religion (or whatever it is) which distorts every day, most people around here. It is very difficult to be fought because the appeal that is made is very big, the person ends up believing everything you see there, supposedly to summon “spirits” of the dead to teach them things, or people who have been so. I think that parapsychology can explain most of those phenomena.

 

[Cachonga]

Colmeia:

About Heb 9:27 I have quoted this passage, but the argument I got was that what we see is the death of the body itself. The soul, on the other hand, would remain indefinitely until there was the divine judgment itself. With this, there would not be inconsistent for the reincarnation of souls during times almost endless. That was very hard for me to answer; I actually had no answer. What would you say in my place?

How many bodies have to die before judgement? According to Heb 9:27, we die, then we face judgement. Even though there may be a long time (from our perspective) between the time we die and face judgement, how is it possible to be reincarnated in another body, live another life, and die again, all before you face judgement for the first life you lived? Where the spirit is between death and judgement is another question (in Rev, we see the souls of martyrs under the alter in Heaven, and elsewhere Hell is described as a prison, which will be cast into the lake of fire at the end of time). I would assert that the Scriptures are very clear that reincarnation is NOT possible (I would certainly hope not - I have enough to answer for in this life!).

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

If their objection is that Hebrews does not apply because even though the body dies, the soul does not die, then that brings up other questions? Aren’t human souls immortal? These people seem to think so. Hebrews still says “it is appointed unto men once to die.” Will all souls suddenly perish and then be resurrected before the judgment? It is ridiculous.