Relationship between church and state

[theCardinalbird]

What should, in the eyes of the Church, be the relationship between the Church and the State?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

The Church determines the moral order. The State applies the moral order prudently.

 

[semper_catholicus]

For one thing, they ought not to be separated. The state is subordinate to and serves the Church, or is supposed to anyway.

 

[edward_george1]

Leo XIII has a little different vision of this in Rerum Novarum. He says that the Church and the State rule over their respective spheres and should do so with minimal interference with one another, but when there’s a conflict, the judgment of the Church is to be deferred to.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[Fauken]

We must render unto God what is God’s, and “we” includes Caesar.

 

[Augustinian]

For one thing, they ought not to be separated. The state is subordinate to and serves the Church, or is supposed to anyway.

That is not the current point of view. The Vatican has suggested that various nations discontinue the Catholic Church’s former status as an “official religion”.

At this point in time, very few nations outside of Vatican City have the Catholic Church in that official position.

50 years ago, there numerous countries in Latin American and Europe particularly where it was.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

“Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

 

[semper_catholicus]

That error has been condemned time and again by various popes in the past.

 

[theCardinalbird]

Leo XIII has a little different vision of this in Rerum Novarum. He says that the Church and the State rule over their respective spheres and should do so with minimal interference with one another, but when there’s a conflict, the judgment of the Church is to be deferred to.

-Fr ACEGC

Thanks edward-george1

 

[Genesis315]

The Church condemns the separation of the Church and state in the sense of the separation of the state from the authority of revealed truth and of God Himself. Furthermore, the Church and State should work together harmoniously, since they are seeking the good of the same people. That does not mean there always has to be a formally “established” Church, etc. But it would also be wrong to say that having such a formal arrangement is always and everywhere harmful to the common good (as certain 19th century political movements claimed). Church and state should be separated in as much as the civil authority has responsibility for temporal matters whereas the Church has responsibility for spiritual matters. One should not be directly subject to the other in its own respective sphere.

“Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

Of course, Caesar must also give to God what is God’s.

 

[Genesis315]

The state is subordinate to and serves the Church, or is supposed to anyway.

I think we need to be clear when we use words like “subordinated” that we don’t mean a juridical subordination, but rather an indirect one based on the hierarchy of values. The Catholic doctrine is not that the state is subordinate to the Church, rather “Each in its kind is supreme, each has fixed limits within which it is contained, limits which are defined by the nature and special object of the province of each, so that there is, we may say, an orbit traced out within which the action of each is brought into play by its own native right.” (Leo XIII, Immortale Dei 13).

The state’s orbit is the common good. “The attainment of the common good is the sole reason for the existence of civil authorities.” (St. John XXIII, Pacem in Terris 54). The common good, however, naturally includes man’s eternal destiny: “Consisting, as he does, of body and immortal soul, man cannot in this mortal life satisfy his needs or attain perfect happiness. Thus, the measures that are taken to implement the common good must not jeopardize his eternal salvation; indeed, they must even help him to obtain it.” (Pacem in Terris 59).

Since it is ultimately “the Church, and not the State, that is to be man’s guide to heaven” (Immortale Dei 11),in its service to the common good the state as a consequence must have reference to the true religion (cf. CCC 2244) and therefore the Church’s judgment with regard to it (since the Church is the sole interpreter of God’s revelation and law (cf. Vatican II, Dei Verbum 10)). In fact, this is why the Church teaches it can pass judgment on political matters when the salvation of souls requires it (cf. Vatican II, Gaudium et Spes 76.).

It also bears pointing out that ordering the political community toward Christ and the true religion is ultimately the laity’s job (cf. CCC 898-899, Gaudium et Spes 43, Apostolicam Actuositatem 13, etc.)

 

[Genesis315]

That error has been condemned time and again by various popes in the past.

As for whether there is an “established” religion or church, the Church has never taught that it must be that way always and everywhere. It certainly condemned some historical instances where these formal relationships were dissolved contrary to the common good, but it never condemned other forms in other circumstances if those better served the common good. While we reject religious indifferentism in principle, the Church “does not, on that account, condemn those rulers who, for the sake of securing some great good or of hindering some great evil, allow patiently custom or usage to be a kind of sanction for each kind of religion having its place in the State.” (Immortale Dei 36) and we acknowledge it is "well at times to waive [the Church’s] rights as far as may lawfully be done and as the good of souls requires. " (St. Pius X, Communium Rerum 31).

Vatican II elaborated on this point of St. Pius X in Gaudium et Spes:

[The Church] will even give up the exercise of certain rights which have been legitimately acquired, if it becomes clear that their use will cast doubt on the sincerity of her witness or that new ways of life demand new methods. It is only right, however, that at all times and in all places, the Church should have true freedom to preach the faith, to teach her social doctrine, to exercise her role freely among men, and also to pass moral judgment in those matters which regard public order when the fundamental rights of a person or the salvation of souls require it.

This is the basis for the most prevalent approach these days. Whether it has been effective for serving the common good is certainly debatable, but there is nothing per se wrong with it.

But regardless of any formal relationships, the state must be subject to God always and everywhere and must take into account the full truth about man when deciding what measures to take to serve the common good.