Relativism

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I have run into a particular attitude with a protestant that is pretty common. The idea that all christians are equal despite the theological differences between them, and that every denomination is valid just as long as they fit that person’s life style. I’ve seen this before, in many protestants, even in my own sister. But this time when I spoke against this belief, and explained my reasons for rejecting it, I seem to get a different response. This person accuses me of being small minded and intolerant of other religions. And I’m not quite sure how to address this.

I explained to this person that all religions can’t all be true. All 30,000+ denominations can’t all be right, and that Jesus didn’t leave us to believe differently with different theology. That I believe there’s only one truth, and I cannot believe that other faiths are just as valid or have a truth of their own. I believe the catholic faith is the only one, true faith left by Jesus.

Instead of having an impact on her, I get this weird wishy washy response that I’m being intolerant, and she doesn’t believe that. I get the ‘as long as we agree on the essentials, we’re all christians’ argument. And I don’t know where to take it next without being seen as ‘intolerant’ or ‘small minded’.
 
How about her? Is she not being intolerant of your belief in rejecting it as “intolerant”? If she’s so “accepting” of all Christians as “equal” then why is she ramming her belief of “tolerance” down your throat?

I came from relativism myself. I’ll have to write down my journey home sometime, but one thing I learned is that relativism is a form of hypocrisy. It is just a way of not standing up for anything, even the truth.
 
Sorry, I could just laugh. Unbelievable this people, eh?

Anyway… Yes, Jesus established a visible church through Peter. He said, “I will build MY church.” He didn’t say, Oh and Peter, build me a church, will you? From this point Jesus was establishing structure with Peter as the head. This is also true in Acts.

Another way of representing the church is through the several covenants that happened in salvation history. Covenant with Adam & Eve (a couple), covenant with Noah (a family), covenant with Abraham (a tribe), covenant with David (a nation)… oh do I see a pattern here? What do you think is next after a nation? Gee… that wouldn’t be the world, would it? Indeed, a worldwide covenant… and hm… what would it look like? Gee… it awfully looks a lot like the Catholic Church… yes, Jesus made a covenant at the Last Supper.

I think that these people start to blast away at us because deep down in their hearts, they know we’re somehow right and they just can’t accept it. I mean c’mon, they ought to know, they’re Bible Christians after all. 🤷 right?

Also, in psychology… we learned that a person would tend to make justifications to make himself feel better. Relativism seems to be that way. You know what I think? They’re just making excuses for themselves. No honesty.
 
The way I tend to think of relativism is that relativists somehow think that whatever we believe about God, it’s true and just fine. Aren’t we subject to God’s will, not the other way around? How can both Trinitarian Christians and non-Trinitarians be right?
 
CatholicSamurai said:
I think that these people start to blast away at us because deep down in their hearts, they know we’re somehow right and they just can’t accept it. I mean c’mon, they ought to know, they’re Bible Christians after all. 🤷 right?

Also, in psychology… we learned that a person would tend to make justifications to make himself feel better. Relativism seems to be that way. You know what I think? They’re just making excuses for themselves. No honesty.
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I believe this too. The person I have been talking to is very upset with me for raising these points. She told me I was an ‘***’ for having my views and not being more ecumenical and tolerant. Personally, I think it upsets her because I might be right, and it might actually make a difference in what you believe, and that the church might really have the truth. Which means everything she believes is wrong and her world will crumble down.

But I also think people need to have that happen to shake them from their comfort and justification.

Something I also discovered. She keeps saying what does it matter as long as we believe in Jesus and the theology of the cross? What does the little things matter as long as we are all believers?

I think that comes from the ‘faith alone’ philosophy. As long as we have faith, faith saves us. If we believe in Jesus, we are saved. If we all believe in Jesus, even if there are differences, then we all are saved. The differences don’t matter, just that basic belief in Jesus, which is the only saving thing.

The reason that doesn’t fly for a catholic is because we know there is more to it than faith alone, and that the church has that ‘more’. We know we need to join in on our salvation with the work Jesus has done, and use the sacraments and the tools Jesus gave the catholic church to strive for salvation. Salvation is not gauranteed, unlike a protestant, so it is important for us to get ‘it’ right and stay on that right path. We cannot simply say it’s all good as long as we all believe. Believing is not enough, we need the church to help us along.

I think that is a huge stumbling block and why relativism is so wide spread with protestants. And unfortunately, too many catholics.
 
Pray that her mind and heart open up. Right now, she looks closed. She just doesn’t have a concept of what we believe because she does not have the experience. We, Catholics, have this experience along with Scripture. We live it for crying out loud. Unfortunately, some of us take this for granted.

And that is why Theology of the Body is able to work because the most basic principle of TOB is “The invisible becomes visible through the physical.” This is true in the Eucharist and every other sacrament. Catholic means universal… everyone is a Catholic, they just don’t know it. 😛

Here’s a quick example: Say… a birthday. What do you do on a birthday? We have a birthday cake. What for? The cake isn’t life itself but it represents the years that a person lived. Hence, the invisible becomes visible through the physical. But I digress…

It will be difficult for her to understand the concept. They do not have a magisterium or a sense of structure. This causes things to fall apart. It’s just… too difficult for them to grasp. They just don’t have anything to hold on to unlike Catholics. Again, my emphasis on the physical.

If you truly want her to understand, you can offer some stuff from Dr. Scott Hahn to her like CD’s or books. It will challenge her to the point of grief (but hopefully no grief). 👍

Always remember… there is an objective truth. A phone book is still a phone book no matter how many times you claim it to be a pizza; no matter how many times you rationalize it to be a pizza.
 
Schools don’t generally teach logic and reasoning anymore, so I think it’s harder and harder for people to understand relativism.
—KCT
 
thomasf said:
I believe this too. The person I have been talking to is very upset with me for raising these points. She told me I was an ‘***’ for having my views and not being more ecumenical and tolerant. Personally, I think it upsets her because I might be right, and it might actually make a difference in what you believe, and that the church might really have the truth. Which means everything she believes is wrong and her world will crumble down.

But I also think people need to have that happen to shake them from their comfort and justification.

Something I also discovered. She keeps saying what does it matter as long as we believe in Jesus and the theology of the cross? What does the little things matter as long as we are all believers?

I think that comes from the ‘faith alone’ philosophy. As long as we have faith, faith saves us. If we believe in Jesus, we are saved. If we all believe in Jesus, even if there are differences, then we all are saved. The differences don’t matter, just that basic belief in Jesus, which is the only saving thing.

The reason that doesn’t fly for a catholic is because we know there is more to it than faith alone, and that the church has that ‘more’. We know we need to join in on our salvation with the work Jesus has done, and use the sacraments and the tools Jesus gave the catholic church to strive for salvation. Salvation is not gauranteed, unlike a protestant, so it is important for us to get ‘it’ right and stay on that right path. We cannot simply say it’s all good as long as we all believe. Believing is not enough, we need the church to help us along.

I think that is a huge stumbling block and why relativism is so wide spread with protestants. And unfortunately, too many catholics.
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Explain to your friend that Satan believes in Jesus Christ, too…
 
thomasf said:
I get this weird wishy washy response that I’m being intolerant, and she doesn’t believe that. I get the ‘as long as we agree on the essentials, we’re all christians’ argument. And I don’t know where to take it next without being seen as ‘intolerant’ or ‘small minded’.
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I’ve been accused of being “close-minded” and “intolerant” too, for being an orthodox Catholic – even by fellow Catholics.

I think it was G.K. Chesterton (?) who said something like “An open mind is like an open mouth. If you never shut it on anything, you will starve to death.”

Also … and I know this may sound harsh to some – we can starve nutritionally when we eat junk food, or only pick and choose from the menu.
 
She is really hung up about not being able to receive communion at a catholic church. She makes a big deal that all are welcome at her luthern church, and that when she goes to mass at a catholic church she can’t even get a ‘blessing’ in the communion line.

I try to explain to her that only catholics can receive, and why, but she just won’t understand. She has invited me to go to her church and asked to come to mine. She said I could go to communion and see how great it was, etc. I told her that even if I went, I wouldn’t go for communion or a blessing. That got her going even more.

I am just not sure how to work around these ideas. It seems pretty clear cut to me, but she keeps reverting back to the ‘as long as we all believe’ thing.
 
Ask her if she believes there is Truth, a knowable, discernable Truth to Christian beliefs.

If so, how can we know that body of Truth (which Catholics would call the deposit of faith), and how can we know it is what Jesus & his apostles taught?

The specific details DO matter, Jesus died for it, as well as many others, and He IS The Truth.

We need more than the Bible to help us interpret the riches that are in it. We have that in the Catholic Church, almost 2000 yrs of thought, teaching, dissection, argument, more thought, doctrinal development and so on.

I think people today do not want to think very deeply on how history has affected religion & what our place in it is. Just “live & let live” is what is important. Sad.

Pray for your friend. Maybe you could attend her service, & then you could talk more about what you saw & what is the Truth.

God bless you – at least you’re able to talk with her.
Mimi
 
That’s the problem. People don’t believe in the Truth, just a warm fuzzy feeling that we’re all Christians.
 
Preach the Truth Like Christ. Do not discuss it, teach it and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. If she is offended tell her to educate herself on The Truth and then learn to Love with the mind of Christ.

The teacher in the math class is not arrogant or told he is too stubborn or to prideful, for teaching that 1+1=2. You know why? This same absolute in matematics does not touch her soul. Christ Church will and nobody can escape, they can fail to embrace it but that is where you come in.

Propose The Truth always and they will come. Learn to show her why she is “offended” in charity of course. And then when the next opening presents itself, gently and with precision scratch her where she itches.

Peace,
David
 
I think many, many Protestant Christians believe this way. If we all believe in Jesus, what does it matter about the other stuff? I heard a call-in program where a minister told a caller that the differences are okay “as long as we agree on the essentials”. The question that immediately leaped to my mind was, “So who decides what is essential and what isn’t?”

John Martignoni (sp?) does a great job of explaining this in his CD series Catholic Answers to Fundamentalist Questions. If your friend thinks that some doctrines or teachings are “non-essential”, ask her how she knows which ones are non-essential, and why would there be non-essential doctrines anyway?

Jesus either established One True visible Church, or He established many churches (obviously not true by a plain reading of Scripture), or His one Church is not visible but an invisible church made up of members of many different denominations. (Many people believe that last one!)

It truly is absurd. Jesus Himself said the Spirit would lead us “to all truth”. He prayed that we would all be one as He is one with His Father. I believe Him, and I don’t think the Holy Spirit would be so confused that He would establish 30,000 different churches, each a little different from the next.

Pray for God to open a door for you to talk to your friend, and pray for the wisdom to know what to say. I have done this, and it is amazing. When I prayed this way, I didn’t have to bring the subject up at all; the other person did. I just tried to remain charitable and open to discussion.

Patty
 
thomasf said:
I have run into a particular attitude with a protestant that is pretty common. The idea that all christians are equal despite the theological differences between them, and that every denomination is valid just as long as they fit that person’s life style. I’ve seen this before, in many protestants, even in my own sister. But this time when I spoke against this belief, and explained my reasons for rejecting it, I seem to get a different response. This person accuses me of being small minded and intolerant of other religions. And I’m not quite sure how to address this.

I explained to this person that all religions can’t all be true. All 30,000+ denominations can’t all be right, and that Jesus didn’t leave us to believe differently with different theology. That I believe there’s only one truth, and I cannot believe that other faiths are just as valid or have a truth of their own. I believe the catholic faith is the only one, true faith left by Jesus.

Instead of having an impact on her, I get this weird wishy washy response that I’m being intolerant, and she doesn’t believe that. I get the ‘as long as we agree on the essentials, we’re all christians’ argument. And I don’t know where to take it next without being seen as ‘intolerant’ or ‘small minded’.
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You’re right, it is wishy washy and sometimes it calls for reiteration and turning the table on the person. What I mean is, if you give me that same wishy washy response, I simply expound on the fact that: The one true church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first Pope, 263 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI, is the Catholic Church. And I would add, " are you asking me to be less of a catholic just so you change your opinion of me?" This is my faith, it is tolerant of others but it does not compromise or wash down its beliefs and dogmas for the sake of fitting in with the popular opinion. Hope this helps.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Yes, this is a very, very frustrating mindset to overcome. Rational arguments and proofs will make no headway because the person doesn’t think things like that matter anyway.

All they want is love. But what they don’t understand is that without truth, you can’t truly love.

For folks like that, I think you need to be able to show by word and deed how living according to truth inflames one with love and a Christ-like life more than living according to partial truths and errors–that, and just pray. Apologetics type approaches go nowhere with such folks.

And last, but not least, always remember to be patient and compassionate, especially with folks like in the OP.
 
Genesis315 said:
Yes, this is a very, very frustrating mindset to overcome. Rational arguments and proofs will make no headway because the person doesn’t think things like that matter anyway.

All they want is love. But what they don’t understand is that without truth, you can’t truly love.

For folks like that, I think you need to be able to show by word and deed how living according to truth inflames one with love and a Christ-like life more than living according to partial truths and errors–that, and just pray. Apologetics type approaches go nowhere with such folks.

And last, but not least, always remember to be patient and compassionate, especially with folks like in the OP.
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You hit the nail right on the head. No matter what you say and what reasons you give, they still claim it’s more important that we all feel warm and fuzzy and just want to be happy and feel loved. This person I have been talking to claims that if I come to her church I will feel welcomed and warm and loved, etc. And I tell her that’s very nice, but they are still missing out on the fullness of the faith and that’s not what I’m looking for. She also got very upset when I told her I wouldn’t go for communion there, and that she couldn’t receive at my church.
 
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