Religion and Suicide

[Charlemagne_III]

Well, the numbers are in. They seem to indicate religion is good for the dark night of the soul.

adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

 

[edward_george]

Quite interesting, but do be careful equating depression and associated psychological disorders with the dark night. They’re not necessarily the same thing.

-ACEGC

 

[Cricket2]

Quite interesting, but do be careful equating depression and associated psychological disorders with the dark night. They’re not necessarily the same thing.

-ACEGC

You are so correct. Though depression and other psychological disorders can be very difficult and painful, they are very different then the Dark Night of the Soul. There is really no comparison.

 

[friardchips]

You are so correct. Though depression and other psychological disorders can be very difficult and painful, they are very different then the Dark Night of the Soul. There is really no comparison.

They are very different altogether. However, all torment and suffering can be offered up and it may become the Dark Night of the Soul, but that is not our doing or choice. The DN of the S is a spiritual/supernatural and extremely holy happening to those who experience it. One that I believe God Himself initiates and guides. The Dark night of the Soul is a mystical experience. Read ‘Impact of God’ by Iain Matthew, a Carmelite friar.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I wish you guys could cut me some slack.

I was just trying on a metaphor for suicide. I wasn’t talking about a mystical experience.

 

[book_and_bead]

Hello all,

Charlemagne III, thanks for posting a most interesting article. I suppose it boils down to religious folks being less prone to suicide because of the fear of Hell or other repercussions in the afterlife according to one’s beliefs. I’ve watched several documentaries about assisted suicide and came to the conclusion that no matter how ill I might become I would never consider it because of my Catholic beliefs. I keep hearing, “Offer it up!” from the traditional relatives on my Dad’s side. So I do, every little ache and pain. Many of the non-religious or atheists I know have less fear because of their beliefs of a finite life on this Earth. In my heart I’ve always believed in some kind of life after death.

friardchips, thank you for the book suggestion, I just ordered it from Amazon! I’m looking forward to reading it.

Having said the differences between the Dark Night of the Soul and mental illness, I’m not sure about the Church’s stance on suicide in the case of severe depression or other circumstances…can anyone clarify?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Having said the differences between the Dark Night of the Soul and mental illness, I’m not sure about the Church’s stance on suicide in the case of severe depression or other circumstances…can anyone clarify?

Just speculating here:

In the case of mental disability, there may be extenuating circumstances beyond the suicide’s control, such as chemical imbalance produced by drugs.

The more interesting case to me is the act of a soldier protecting his comrades by falling on a grenade. This is suicide, yet an instinctive act that suggests extraordinary heroism. I would imagine this to be granted by the Church as a valid form of suicide, though I’ve never seen that in print.

 

[friardchips]

friardchips, thank you for the book suggestion, I just ordered it from Amazon! I’m looking forward to reading it.

This is great to hear! Really pleased! Advice…take it slow and think of it as prayerful reading. Happy journeying!

 

[friardchips]

Just speculating here:

In the case of mental disability, there may be extenuating circumstances beyond the suicide’s control, such as chemical imbalance produced by drugs.

Maybe. God is the judge. Wouldn’t surprise me if the down-side of drugs helped along some of these suicides. But as for the brain chemical: serotonin? Not sure if that could be depleted enough to make certain a person’s choice to kill oneself.

The more interesting case to me is the act of a soldier protecting his comrades by falling on a grenade. This is suicide, yet an instinctive act that suggests extraordinary heroism. I would imagine this to be granted by the Church as a valid form of suicide, though I’ve never seen that in print.

I thought God said that there is no greater act than to give up one’s life for a friend. This is surely not suicide/self-murder but protecting other people. Brave if anything. Good point though.

 

[friardchips]

I wish you guys could cut me some slack.

I was just trying on a metaphor for suicide. I wasn’t talking about a mystical experience.

We’ve gone a bit off track then. I think it all comes down to Baptism. People nowadays suggest that people shouldn’t be baptised as a baby but rather should have the choice as an adult. This is one of the benefits of being baptised as a babe: you have this kind of inbuilt extra resilience against slack and immoral values in society. I think if more people were baptised there would be a lot less mental issue cases too (of the less severe). A lot of it as well is demonic activity. I bet you if half the people who had mental issues went to confession, received the Sacraments and had supportive Catholics around them praying for them, their symptoms would reduce. For actual brain-damaged people, you’d need to ask a doctor (a Christian one ).

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I thought God said that there is no greater act than to give up one’s life for a friend. This is surely not suicide/self-murder but protecting other people. Brave if anything. Good point though.

Yes, it is not suicide from despair but from altruism.

 

[friardchips]

Yes, it is not suicide from despair but from altruism.

Altruism: exactly. Technically, looking at what ‘suicide’ actually means I wouldn’t call it that even. Because to jump on a grenade, one guesses it is going to kill oneself, but the person doing the altruistic act isn’t hoping to kill oneself but rather making a spontaneous reaction to protect others. But for people to commit suicide is to plan their own death in advance, I would imagine - premeditated. Thought about. And with a definite wish to die.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Altruism: exactly. But for people to commit suicide is to plan their own death in advance, I would imagine - premeditated. Thought about. And with a definite wish to die.

There’s the rub. Most people wish to live and would rather run than fall on the grenade.

So in this instance I don’t see much passion for one’s own life to go on.

 

[Michael19682]

quotes originally posted by friardchips:

A lot of it as well is demonic activity.

There is no doubt in my mind about that. And I’ve heard and thought about it from many “theoretical” perspectives. You are learned, wise, and impart great love with that comment.

I bet you if half the people who had mental issues went to confession, received the Sacraments and had supportive Catholics around them praying for them, their symptoms would reduce.

I think as you partly say that the fellowship of the Holy Spirit and His supportive Catholic followers is likely key to everything. Faith can be damaged by worldly skepticism. Even great gains can be destroyed without constant checking in by the faith community until the afflicted learns to not fear but trust them. The question is: why is the good scenario not more the common case?

For actual brain-damaged people, you’d need to ask a doctor (a Christian one )

It would be nice to see transposed the comment in parenthesis to all professional support for all mentally ill Catholics. I do not eschew the non Christians as people, but unless one has God’s love within him or her through the life of Jesus (and also) the sacraments, how can they be of true benefit to a mentally ill Catholic. What it boils down to is that unless the therapist loves Jesus, the therapy is mere technical skill exercised with contempt for the person’s true inner identity. Any improvement is accidental.

 

[friardchips]

quotes originally posted by friardchips:

There is no doubt in my mind about that. And I’ve heard and thought about it from many “theoretical” perspectives. You are learned, wise, and impart great love with that comment.

I think as you partly say that the fellowship of the Holy Spirit and His supportive Catholic followers is likely key to everything. Faith can be damaged by worldly skepticism. Even great gains can be destroyed without constant checking in by the faith community until the afflicted learns to not fear but trust them. The question is: why is the good scenario not more the common case?

Thank you for the nod! I needed to hear some words of confidence this morning Good timing.

Jesus will always be the stumbling block. The more the world advances in material things and technology speeds communication up more and more the harder it is to seek solace and discover where and how the Holy Spirit works. Combine that with an already sceptical world (as you rightly put it) and we have a problem. But to remain on a hopeful note: media, such that it is, reaches all people everywhere, so we are more aware too of all problems around the world, so much so that we almost have to be like mini-oracles, or mystics, taking the whole world who is now our neighbour, into account - this is a big responsibility! Can you imagine if humans had technology (nonsense, I know) in tribal times: “News in…we have reports that Incas have just sacrificed a thousand innocent people to the sun God and these victims seem to be taking it rather well, however, there is nothing we can do about it because we are not advanced enough in our understanding of God, in fact, we have no knowledge of God…etc”. . So my (slightly obscure) point is that everything has its time and place and we are not out of God’ sight as bad as it might seem. The tools we have today are the tools applicable for today, the world at odds today is the world we have today and our knowledge of God has grown as such that we have two-thousand years of faith to drawn on to fight the good fight in such seemingly impossible times.

However, not everyone has a cave where we can be hermits and seek God in our hearts, like the saints with their rules. And with the internet not even a person’s home can have the same degree of solitude. Maybe the Church is not fighting evil from as many turrets from our fortified City as it could be (?) It is important that you mentioned the Holy Spirit as He is actually key. (I am guessing that the solution is to be found in a very Blessed Mother and Lady - who can dispense great graces from God upon the Church so that it can be of one mind and heart and a place where all outsiders come to and feel reassured that they are loved). But where there are weaknesses in the defence the demons attack.

It would be nice to see transposed the comment in parenthesis to all professional support for all mentally ill Catholics. I do not eschew the non Christians as people, but unless one has God’s love within him or her through the life of Jesus (and also) the sacraments, how can they be of true benefit to a mentally ill Catholic. What it boils down to is that unless the therapist loves Jesus, the therapy is mere technical skill exercised with contempt for the person’s true inner identity. Any improvement is accidental.

More Catholic therapists needed then. More Catholic Education. With or without backing from governments. Church-orchestrated therapy with professionals who solely work from a God-perspective(?)