Religion without God?

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What is religion? Can there be religions without God? One of our regular posters says that Buddhists have gods but they can be safely ignored. A federal court has described atheism as a religion. Can there be religion without worship? We seem to be entering a topsy-turvy world of logic regarding the definition of religion. Do you agree that religions can exist without God(s)? Then what distinguishes religion from mere philosophy?
 
Well, speaking broadly, I would argue that religions have a tendency to ostracize those who disagree with its tenets. (As opposed to mere philosophy, which generally remains jn the realm of academic dispute.) By that standard, the whole basket of “global warmists” and their allies should seem to qualify as a religion-without-god. They have credal beliefs that are not allowed to be challenged, people who disagree are attacked, many of their beliefs are not scientifically supported, and a compliant media engages in shaming climate apostates. And then there’s Al Gore, pontiff over it all. Yeah, it’s a religion.
 
Well, speaking broadly, I would argue that religions have a tendency to ostracize those who disagree with its tenets.
Do you really define religion as a belief system that ostracizes those who disagree with it? Because I don’t think Catholicism ostracizes those who disagree with it. Maybe some people in the Church do, but I don’t think they’re following Church teaching when they do. Wouldn’t your definition exclude the Catholic Church, supposing everyone followed its teachings?
What is religion? Can there be religions without God? One of our regular posters says that Buddhists have gods but they can be safely ignored. A federal court has described atheism as a religion. Can there be religion without worship? We seem to be entering a topsy-turvy world of logic regarding the definition of religion. Do you agree that religions can exist without God(s)? Then what distinguishes religion from mere philosophy?
I define religion as the attitude a person shows toward God. I take this definition from my understanding of the word’s history: it is my understanding that religion used to be a synonym for piety, the modern usage of which more closely aligns with the definition I just gave. A pious person shows a humble attitude toward God, and that is what I think a religious person does.

To count as “a religion”, I think a group would have to make some effort to develop a shared attitude about God, including beliefs and rituals. Without those things, I don’t think a group is really united.

Because atheists do not try to show piety toward God, I wouldn’t define atheism as a religion. I don’t know much about Buddhism, but I have heard that there are many Buddhists who don’t believe in God. If there is a sect of Buddhism that tries to organize beliefs and rituals around that nonbelief in God, I don’t think it would qualify as a religion because they do not show piety toward God.
 
So you are saying religion is only to be defined as absolutist authoritarianism?

Then how does atheism qualify as a religion, or Buddhism for that matter?

Would you say that atheism is anti-authoritarian because it denies any absolute authority, and therefore cannot be a religion? Does it have a Pontiff like Al Gore? Does it have a Magisterium?
 
What is religion? Can there be religions without God?
There can be religions without any gods. As far as the answer to “what is a religion” that’s going to depend on the purpose for which you are asking. What constitutes a religion to an anthropologist might not constitute a religion for tax exemption purposes.
A federal court has described atheism as a religion.
Are you talking about the ruling a month ago that describes secular humanism as a religion? I’d like to point out that secular humanism and atheism are not synonymous. If this is the case let’s take a look at one description of it.
On Thursday, October 30, Senior District Judge Ancer Haggerty issued a ruling on American Humanist Association v. United States, a case that was brought by the American Humanist Association (AHA) and Jason Holden, a federal prisoner. Holden pushed for the lawsuit because he wanted Humanism — which the AHA defines as “an ethical and life-affirming philosophy free of belief in any gods and other supernatural forces” — recognized as a religion so that his prison would allow for the creation of a Humanist study group. Haggerty sided with the plaintiffs in his decision, citing existing legal precedent and arguing that denying Humanists the same rights as groups such as Christianity would be highly suspect under the Establishment Clause in the U.S. Constitution, which declares that Congress “shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”
“The court finds that Secular Humanism is a religion for Establishment Clause purposes,” the ruling read.
Here it is being used for the purpose of legal classification. The motivation behind the case was to get some of the same special treatment that others within the religious classifications have.
Can there be religion without worship?
Yes.
We seem to be entering a topsy-turvy world of logic regarding the definition of religion.
What is the problem in logic?
Do you agree that religions can exist without God(s)?
Yes.
Then what distinguishes religion from mere philosophy?
The two can be mixed together. One isn’t necessarily distinct from another.
Would you say that atheism is anti-authoritarian because it denies any absolute authority, and therefore cannot be a religion? Does it have a Pontiff like Al Gore? Does it have a Magisterium?
Religions don’t necessarily have an ultimate authority. I think you may be trying to get other standpoints to fit Catholicism here. Different religions may be structured differently.
 
Here it is being used for the purpose of legal classification. The motivation behind the case was to get some of the same special treatment that others within the religious classifications have.
THE 1st AMENDMENT WAS ESTABLISHED TO PROTECT RELIGIOUS RIGHTS.

Doesn’t the declaration of the Court amount to establishing a new religion called Secular Humanism? How does that fit with how the secular humanists regard themselves. Do they regard themselves as a religion? My experience with them is that most of them are atheist/agnostic and they regard themselves as entirely unreligious.
 
Doesn’t the declaration of the Court amount to establishing a new religion called Secular Humanism?
Establishing? No. Recognizing, yes.
How does that fit with how the secular humanists regard themselves. Do they regard themselves as a religion?
Only for the purpose of having access to some of the same benefits as other religious groups. Outside of the government granted privileges the people interviewed in the article don’t care.
My experience with them is that most of them are atheist/agnostic and they regard themselves as entirely unreligious.
The one’s I encountered seem to be unreligious.
 
Did the Secular Humanists seek recognition as a religion?
Are a united group, no. Though not every one that identifies as “secular humanist” is necessarily a part of the same group (just as people that call themselves “Christian” are not necessarily part of the same group).
Then what is their definition of religion if most of them are atheist/agnostic?
American Humanist has the following in their Manifesto
American Humanist Manifesto:
Religions have always been means for realizing the highest values of life. Their end has been accomplished through the interpretation of the total environing situation (theology or world view), the sense of values resulting therefrom (goal or ideal), and the technique (cult), established for realizing the satisfactory life. A change in any of these factors results in alteration of the outward forms of religion. This fact explains the changefulness of religions through the centuries. But through all changes religion itself remains constant in its quest for abiding values, an inseparable feature of human life.

Today man’s larger understanding of the universe, his scientific achievements, and deeper appreciation of brotherhood, have created a situation which requires a new statement of the means and purposes of religion. Such a vital, fearless, and frank religion capable of furnishing adequate social goals and personal satisfactions may appear to many people as a complete break with the past. While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation
There’s more to read. But the above might give you an idea of what they consider a religion. See a complete listing here: americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I
 
Are a united group, no. Though not every one that identifies as “secular humanist” is necessarily a part of the same group (just as people that call themselves “Christian” are not necessarily part of the same group).
Yet all Christians believe in God. They have that in common. so far as I can tell secular humanists have in common that they don’t worship God, and don’t believe such a being exists.

This is what doesn’t make sense. What they have defined as religion in the passage you cite is also the description of a philosophy. Isn’t there supposed to be a difference between a philosophy and a religion? :confused:
 
Yet all Christians believe in God. They have that in common. so far as I can tell secular humanists have in common that they don’t worship God, and don’t believe such a being exists.
That description is a little more general and is inclusive of people that are not necessarily secular humanist. They tend to be non-religious and also believe that humans must face the ethical consequences of their decisions and encourage people to analyze their viewpoints and decisions (among other attributes).
Isn’t there supposed to be a difference between a philosophy and a religion? :confused:
No. Ideology, philosophy, religion, and world view are all concepts that can have overlap with each other. They are not necessarily cleanly partitioned away from each other.
 
No. Ideology, philosophy, religion, and world view are all concepts that can have overlap with each other. They are not necessarily cleanly partitioned away from each other.
They are not cleanly partitioned, but there ought to be some basis for partitioning them, otherwise the terms could be used interchangeably, which they usually are not.

That’s why I’ve always regarded Buddhism as a philosophy, an atheist one at that, rather than a religion. God seems to have no particularly important place in Buddhism, since all the emphasis is on us working out our own destiny without any recourse to Divinity.
 
It’s an interesting assertion that secular humanism is a religion; so when a secular humanist insists upon forcibly imposing secularism in the government in his attempt to get rid of God I would think that would constitute a violation of the establishment clause of the constitution.
 
It’s an interesting assertion that secular humanism is a religion; so when a secular humanist insists upon forcibly imposing secularism in the government in his attempt to get rid of God I would think that would constitute a violation of the establishment clause of the constitution.
Secularism isn’t humanism. The word “secular” before humanism identifies a branch of humanism.
 
Secularism isn’t humanism. The word “secular” before humanism identifies a branch of humanism.
Right…just like Catholicism isn’t Christianity.

And before you decide to turn the phrase and assert that protestantism is another “branch” of Christianity “just like Catholicism” you need to prove that protestantism was in fact taught by Christ and wasn’t a 16th century invention.
 
Right…just like Catholicism isn’t Christianity.

And before you decide to turn the phrase and assert that protestantism is another “branch” of Christianity “just like Catholicism” you need to prove that protestantism was in fact taught by Christ and wasn’t a 16th century invention.
There were, of course, earlier pockets of Protestantism that Paul had to combat.

But Paul was teaching Christ while they were teaching what they darn well pleased. 🤷
 
Right…just like Catholicism isn’t Christianity.
Someone can be a secularist without being a humanist.
Some one can be a humanist without being secular.
Your example of Catholic/Christian doesn’t have the same relationship. (Can someone be a non-Christian Catholic?).
And before you decide to turn the phrase and assert that protestantism is another “branch” of Christianity “just like Catholicism” you need to prove that protestantism was in fact taught by Christ and wasn’t a 16th century invention.
The Catholic/protestant dichotomy of Christianity isn’t dependent on whether or not Christ actually existed or what interpretations of the bible may have been his actual intention. Not that any of this is relevant secularism not being the same as humanism.
 
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