Religious studies teacher and Vatican II

[Caesar]

My religious studies teacher talked to the class today about Vatican II. She seems to have gone opposite to the Sedevacantists and says that because of the nature of the TLM, transubtantiation rarely took place in a Tridentine Mass before the New Mass was instituted which “brought back the ancient form of the Apostles” which was lost in the early Middle Ages.

Is there anything to this?

 

[puzzleannie]

it ought to be a requirement enforcable by law that anyone who teaches anything regarding V2 MUST read the actual documents. they can be accessed from both the Vatican and US bishops websites. Ask her politely (don’t use the tone of voice Annie would use) to find a citation for her preposterous claim in the actual documents. She is full of what you use to make sure your roses grow.

 

[whosebob]

She … says that because of the nature of the TLM, transubtantiation rarely took place in a Tridentine Mass before the New Mass was instituted which “brought back the ancient form of the Apostles” which was lost in the early Middle Ages. Is there anything to this?

JMJ + OBT​

It’s difficult to know precisely the point she is trying to make. The Canon of the TLM lacks an explicit epiklesis, which fact some Eastern Orthodox hold up as evidence that the Western Catholic Church lacks a true Eucharist. So she might be jumping on that bandwagon.

On the other hand, she might intend to make the case that since the TLM often lacked external participation on the part of most of the lay faithful in attendance (besides the altar servers and any laity in the choir), that therefore the consecration was somehow rendered invalid.

Or she could be making some other point entirely … it’s hard to know. Can you provide more information on her position?

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Genesis315]

People just can’t resist passing on their own personal teaching rather than the teaching of the Church. St. Leo the Great called such people masters of error whereas we should be disciples of Truth.

 

[Caesar]

JMJ + OBT​

It’s difficult to know precisely the point she is trying to make. The Canon of the TLM lacks an explicit epiklesis, which fact some Eastern Orthodox hold up as evidence that the Western Catholic Church lacks a true Eucharist. So she might be jumping on that bandwagon.

On the other hand, she might intend to make the case that since the TLM often lacked external participation on the part of most of the lay faithful in attendance (besides the altar servers and any laity in the choir), that therefore the consecration was somehow rendered invalid.

Or she could be making some other point entirely … it’s hard to know. Can you provide more information on her position?

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

She didnt really get into specifics. She just made the point that because the Mass was changed and “distorted” during the ealy Middle Ages, Transubstantiation rarely took place.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My religious studies teacher talked to the class today about Vatican II. She seems to have gone opposite to the Sedevacantists and says that because of the nature of the TLM, transubtantiation rarely took place in a Tridentine Mass before the New Mass was instituted which “brought back the ancient form of the Apostles” which was lost in the early Middle Ages.

Is there anything to this?

No it has no basis and is an error.

 

[whosebob]

She didnt really get into specifics. She just made the point that because the Mass was changed and “distorted” during the ealy Middle Ages, Transubstantiation rarely took place.

JMJ + OBT​

Okay. Well the burden of proof is laid upon her to show how and when “the Mass was changed and distorted during the early Middle Ages.” Rest assured that she won’t be able to provide you with any substantial evidence, and any evidence she does provide will be readily exploded by way of some articles from the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia and other resources on-line. (The wonderful library of the Oratory in Toronto [which I’ve been in myself] would likely have some resources which would be of use to you as well. )

But a first order defense against her statements would be to point out that the TLM was promulgated at the highest level, by Pope St. Pius V! It would be wholly contrary to Christ’s promises to the Church if her head pastor, the successor of St. Peter, were to deprive the Church of Christ’s greatest gift to her, the gift of His very self in the Blessed Eucharist. Moreover, one could make a list of 20 to 30 names of canonized Saints that lived during the time when she believed the distortions were introduced and who were great lovers of our Eucharistic Lord; off the top of my head such a list might include: St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Peter Julian Eymard, St. Clare of Assisi, St. John Bosco, St. Martin de Porres, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, and the list could go on and on. It would be ABSURD to believe that those Saints were in love with a fake Eucharist! There are also a number of notable and recognized Eucharistic miracles which took place during that time period. Finally, I wouldn’t hesitate to point out the St. “Padre” Pio of Pietrelcina continued (with permission) to privately celebrate the TLM even after the Pauline Rite had been promulgated; that was true of St. Josemeria Escriva as well – both of those men loved Our Eucharistic Lord with every beat of their hearts; why would they celebrate a Mass which didn’t result in His becoming present on the altar?

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Aureole]

I’m not a liturgical historian, but what your teacher said seems patently false. The “nature” (Whatever that may mean) of the Tridentine Latin Mass would have grown organically from the Liturgies celebrated by the early Christians. Trent, as far as I know, only codified and regulated the Mass to be celebrated in the form it was celebrated under. To say otherwise would mean that the Mass promulgated by Trent was made up out of nothing, which isn’t the case. If it were, this teacher may be on to something.

You should check with your parish priest about all this since, as I said above, I’m not a liturgical historian. A priest who celebrates the Tridentine Mass is likely to know far more than I.