Removing prayer from public schools: Catholic idea?

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A few years back I heard an interview about the history of prayer in public schools. The person being interviewed noted that in Chicago in the 1800s, there were mostly Episcopalians and Presbyterians. They had significant theological differences over prayer and interpretation of scripture, but what they could agree on was the Lord’s Prayer and reading of scripture from the King James Bible without interpretation. So these two agreeable practices were included in the public schools, leaving the topics in dispute for home and church.

Then along came Catholic immigration. As the numbers of Catholics grew, they began complaining that they didn’t much care for the KJV, and that they didn’t use the doxology in the Our Father. In time it was decided to eliminate this lack of respect for Catholic practice, but there was no longer any area where the different groups could agree to prayer or scripture reading, and we know the result.

I don’t know how complete this story is, as I haven’t heard it repeated since. Perhaps it’s inaccurate, or perhaps any similar issue arises, it’s not in anyone’s interest to bring it up. And unfortunately, there are so many unrelated prayer in school hits that a websearch hasn’t been effective.

Has anyone heard this story, or know more about the facts in question?
 
I would have to look it up, and I would be interested in hearing from some of the practicing attorneys on the board, but if I recall correctly from law school, it was purely an issue of the separation of church and state under the Constitution. If I were to hazard a guess, those behind it were atheists or the ACLU - again, someone with better legal knowledge would know the history. I never heard this theory, but I doubt it.
 
I’ve heard a similar story. Apparently this is how Catholic schools got started. Evidently catholics were being forced to read from the KJV and those who didn’t were threatend with physical force. Houses were burned, etc.
 
Um… I don’t know what you mean by the “Catholic immigration.”

Christopher Columbus is Catholic.
 
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matthew1624:
I’ve heard a similar story. Apparently this is how Catholic schools got started. Evidently catholics were being forced to read from the KJV and those who didn’t were threatend with physical force. Houses were burned, etc.
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“Evidently?!?”

I ask because I don’t know what “evidence” of which you’re speaking.

Catholics have always been prejudiced against… one way or another. Like other groups.

The Nazi’s had Catholics right on their list of “remove them from society” groups, along with the Jews.

Seems like Catholic schools have always been around in America.

ca-missions.org/contact.html#miss

Check out the California Missions, for example. The second Mission (Mission San Carlos Borromeo in Carmel, Calfornia) was established in 1770.

carmelmission.org/

virtualguidebooks.com/CentralCalif/MontereyPeninsula/CarmelMission/CarmelMissionAltar.html

ca-missions.org/links.html#specificmissions
 
Well, all I know is Catholic schools are doing much better than public schools these days. And I know which schools are praying and learning religion.

🙂
 
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stellina:
If I were to hazard a guess, those behind it were atheists or the ACLU - again, someone with better legal knowledge would know the history.
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If the story as I heard it is true, this event apparently took place in the 19th century - well before the ACLU, founded in 1920. And presumably at a time before any atheist would be given his day in court on such an issue.
Veronica Anne:
Um… I don’t know what you mean by the “Catholic immigration.”

Christopher Columbus is Catholic.
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Starting in the 1840s, Irish, followed by German, French, Italian, Polish, etc began immigrating to the US (and Canada) in large numbers. Prior to this, there were comparatively few Catholics in most of the US.

I hope Columbus is Catholic, but regardless of his current state, he’s not an immigrant and lived long before the existence of public schools.
 
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digitonomy:
A few years back I heard an interview about the history of prayer in public schools. The person being interviewed noted that in Chicago in the 1800s, there were mostly Episcopalians and Presbyterians. They had significant theological differences over prayer and interpretation of scripture, but what they could agree on was the Lord’s Prayer and reading of scripture from the King James Bible without interpretation. So these two agreeable practices were included in the public schools, leaving the topics in dispute for home and church.

Then along came Catholic immigration. As the numbers of Catholics grew, they began complaining that they didn’t much care for the KJV, and that they didn’t use the doxology in the Our Father. In time it was decided to eliminate this lack of respect for Catholic practice, but there was no longer any area where the different groups could agree to prayer or scripture reading, and we know the result.

I don’t know how complete this story is, as I haven’t heard it repeated since. Perhaps it’s inaccurate, or perhaps any similar issue arises, it’s not in anyone’s interest to bring it up. And unfortunately, there are so many unrelated prayer in school hits that a websearch hasn’t been effective.

Has anyone heard this story, or know more about the facts in question?
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Google Bishop John Hughes. He was archbishop of New York in the mid nineteenth century. His fight with the state and city over religious instruction in public schools led to the founding of the NY Catholic schools and the elimination of religion in public schools.
 
When I was in elementary school in Maine in the 40’s we had prayer and a Baptist Bible Teacher in our one-room school. One of the Catholic parents objected and our Catholic Pastor told her to shut-up. His point was that this was all the religion most of these kids were getting, and it sure beat nothing.
 
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But isn’t it true that there is no such thing as a “wall of separation of church and state” in the Constitution? That the phrase is from a letter of Jefferson’s in his later days? (Sort of like the phrases in some of his other letters where he supposedly decries religion --specifically Catholicism–by saying that governments collapse under priests, etc.)

Isn’t it true that what is in the Constitution is what is known as the “establishment clause”–that Congress shall make no law respecting an nor shall it inhibit the free exercise thereof = in other words, no state religion such as was known in Europe (Church of England for Britain, for example), but everybody free to worship in his or her own way?

As for the “prayer in public schools”, firstly, we had no such thing as free public education for the majority of people in this country until the late 19th century. Colonial America had “dame schools” for young children, boys and girls, and then boys alone went on into higher education. One of the first institutions of higher learning (high school) for girls was the Emma Willard School (in Troy, NY) which was founded in the early 19th century. And these schools used the Bible in their instruction (not necessarily the KJV either) for many reasons–most families either had a copy or had access to a copy, both Protestants and Catholics valued reading scripture, character formation was considered a primary focus of education, etc.

One of the reasons that we developed parochial schools in this country (or so I was taught in my Catholic elementary school) was that in the free public education system, especially in the late 19th and early 20th century, the focus on student learning and development was that called the “Factory model”, where students were educated to become what the country needed–unquestioningly loyal, hard working, patriotic citizens, and where the school curriculum was geared specifically into implanting, rewarding, and fostering those qualities. And the textbooks which came out at the time were heavily “Protestant” in character. The history which was taught in public schools was written from a Protestant perspective. The Reformation was presented as a positive action; the Catholic church was presented as patriarchical, repressive, etc. Look at the average science book and see how Gallileo is presented as the hero and “Rome” as a monster. Read how Columbus systematically destroyed the New World by allowing the “Catholic” leaders to commit genocide on the Indians.

Catholic education came about to give students a CATHOLIC perspective on education. Secular education is heavily biased. First it was biased to Protestant teaching; lately, it is biased to atheistic, secular humanistic teaching.

We have generation on generation of students who became adults who received this deliberate misinformation in public schools and accept it as “gospel true”. They don’t even realize that there IS another “side” to Columbus, Gallileo, the Reformation, and certainly not to religion.

It is sad, because IF the schools (even though biased to Protestants) had KEPT prayer and religious focus, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now, IMO. But then again, once the “protesting” started, the only place for it to go was to complete denial of religion. Once you start “questioning” truth, all you’ll find to support you is lies, lies and more lies, until the whole idea of religion itself becomes one monstrous “lie” which was foisted onto the poor deluded public.

So many have tossed aside the ONE thing which can help us now–prayer to Almighty God. That’s why we who pray must keep it up even more than ever before. . .IMO.
 
:thumbsup:Thanks Ken, that seems to be exactly the story I had heard. For some reason I thought it was in Chicago. And I should also correct myself, after having read a couple of the Google hits on Archbishop Hughes, that Presbyterians were also apparently johnny-come-lately’s to the public school system, and immediately followed the Catholics in petitioning for public monies for their own separate schools in NY.
 
The Nazi’s had Catholics right on their list of “remove them from society” groups, along with the Jews.

Why would Hitler antaganize Catholics? We all know he had PP XII in his pocket.

I hope you understand I’m being very sarcastic?
 
Many moan and groan about the removal of prayer and religion from public schools. But not many realize that the Council of Baltimore in the late 1800s instructed each parish to set up its own school. This was because the public schools were indoctrinating their pupils in Protestantism. My answer to such Protestants is for them to set up their own schools as we did over a century ago! A public school is not supposed to teach religion.
 
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