Repentance after death?

[CurlySmirly]

I was talking with my friend today and we got on the topic of Hell. My friend said that the early Church Fathers believed that hell and purgatory were one in the same, but that the elect and the damned experienced it differently. Where I became concerned is when he said that only demons would spend eternity in hell, because often times people repent when they are in hell and realize the gravity of their situation, and God saves them. He said that this wasn’t universalism because people can still choose to be in hell if they don’t repent out of pride or for other reasons, but that they can repent nonetheless. I tried to explain to him that the Church and the bible speaks of death being the end of our ability to repent and that those in hell are unable to be saved, but he insisted that a loving God would provide a way out for those in hell

He sent me some texts as evidence, which say

" But if punishment is to be weighed out according to sin, not even so would punishment be endless. For as regards that which is said in the Gospel, 'These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal, this word ‘eternal’ ( le-âlam* ) is not definite: for if it be not so, how did Peter say to our Lord, 'Thou shalt never wash my feet' and yet He washed him? And of Babylon He said, 'No man shall dwell therein for ever and ever,' and behold many generations dwell therein... The penalty of Gehenna is a man's mind; for the punishment there is of two kinds, that of the body and that of the mind. That of the body is perhaps in proportion to the degree of sin, and He lessens and diminishes its duration; but that of the mind is for ever, and the judgment is for ever.' But in the New Testament *le-âlam is not without end. To Him be glory and dominion and praise and exaltation and honour for ever and ever. Amen and Amen."

He also sent a lengthy article from an Orthodox website on St. Isaac, which seems to partially say that Gehenna was created to play a part in God’s mercy for the redemption of sinners and that it cannot be eternal, since God knew from the beginning that his creatures would disobey him.

What am I to make of all this? I don’t really believe it, but how can I refute it?

 

[Gab123]

Jesus spoke about the eternal punishment of hell; don’t be fooled by those who contradict the gospel. Jesus himself described:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Vico]

…
He also sent a lengthy article from an Orthodox website on St. Isaac, which seems to partially say that Gehenna was created to play a part in God’s mercy for the redemption of sinners and that it cannot be eternal, since God knew from the beginning that his creatures would disobey him.

What am I to make of all this? I don’t really believe it, but how can I refute it?

Introducing the Orthodox Church: Its Faith and Life (by Father Anthony Coniaris) pp .146-147:

Can there be anything like repentance after we die? The Orthodox Church teaches that the state of the soul at the Particular Judgment (immediately after death) is fixed and unchangeable, that is, there can be no moral improvement or repentance beyond the grave. ‘I must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day,’ said Jesus, ‘night comes, when no man can work’ (John 9:4). In his mercy God gives us many chances to repent and return to Him But this should not lead anyone to presume upon God’s goodness. One day ‘night will come when no man can work.’

 

[Magnanimity]

My friend said that the early Church Fathers believed

There was no unanimity among the Fathers on the matter of Hell. It flat out didn’t exist. To try to assert that it did can only be borne out of ignorance. St Augustine taught that Hell was punitive, neverending and inescapable. St Gregory of Nyssa taught that the whole of creation, to even include the fallen angels, would eventually be restored to God. And then there was everything in between. Eschatology was truly a speculative exercise to the early Fathers and Mothers.

He said that this wasn’t universalism because people can still choose to be in hell if they don’t repent out of pride or for other reasons,

This is a great deal like the vision of CS Lewis in his book The Great Divorce. He imagines there being a vehicle that moves between the two realms of Heaven and Hell (eg, a bus).

He also sent a lengthy article from an Orthodox website

It’s true that the Orthodox have generally been more open to universalism than Catholics throughout the centuries. This site maintains a list of (mostly Orthodox) theology works on universalism. However, as much as folks here on CAF don’t like to hear it, the preeminent Fathers of Vatican 2 were generally open to the possibility of the salvation of all humanity, in the end. This list includes Cardinals Danielou and De Lubac, Cardinal-elect Von Balthasar and Karl Rahner.

 

[Inquiry]

The nature of hell, resting as it does on the mysteries of God’s perfect justice and perfect mercy, is impossible to fully understand or quantify. Even if argument for hell being permanent is as robust as humanly possible, it may still be possible for God to redeem those there through graces known only to Him. However…

I am unaware of any revelation, personal or otherwise, which indicated that someone went to hell, turned back to God, and was redeemed. I trust in God’s infinite mercy and that He will not let me fall so long as I turn to Him. It still strikes me as terrible presumption to depend on Him saving me even if I turn away.

The best argument I have for an impermanent hell is that God is not arbitrary and His mercy will never, ever run dry. There isn’t a magical point beyond which He will not forgive and heal. I fully believe that He stands ready and willing to save everyone in hell down to the most recalcitrant blasphemer, the most vicious tyrant, and the most fervent idolater if they just turn back to Him.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t change much because the problem doesn’t lie with God’s mercy but with us:

CCC 1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Note the two most important things about that definition. First, hell is self inflicted. It doesn’t matter if everyone there has full access to God’s mercy because they chose (and still choose) to reject it. Secondly, the exclusion is definitive, if someone is capable of returning to communion with God, they aren’t in hell.

Does that leave open the possibility of a state between hell and purgatory where those who have turned away but not permanently sit? I suppose, but if so, wouldn’t that state exist as part of Particular Judgement?

 

[GLam1761]

One CAN speculate on Universalism, but what of those
whose fire is not(never) quenched and whose worm does
not(never) die?? Is. probably the place to go for ETERNAL
conditions of those wretched souls who is looked at w/
pity/loathing of those who are the Blessed in the New
World. SEE Is. 66:22-24. also @CurlySmirly

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

While most Orthodox would agree that there is no repentance after death, for as St. Isaac the Syrian says, “This life has been given to you for repentance, do not waste it in vain pursuits,” you would be hard pressed to find a consensus on the limits of God’s infinite mercy. This is the trouble with speculative theology, as finite creatures we cannot transcend our creatureliness and contemplate both God’s infinite mercy and infinite justice and see them as they truly are. While the apokatastasis (restoration all things to Christ) “that follows from” Origen’s heretical theory of the pre-existence of souls was formally condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the Council, as far as I can find, did not formally condemn outright the restoration of all things.

However, from the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: " 43{42} And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: 44{43} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. 45{44} And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting than having two feet to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire: 46{45} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. 47{46} And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: 48{47} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished." Mk. 9:48, this seems to indicate that the fires and torments of hell are eternal.

I am no expert on Origenism, Universal Salvation or the Fifth Ecumenical Council, but Fr. Aidan on the blog linked above just came out with this article yesterday: Repentance after death? - #6 by GLam1761

At the end of the day, I would be cautiously optimistic and alongside, Von Balthasar, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and C.S. Lewis offer the “hope that all may be saved.” We cannot set the limits of God’s mercy, nor can we deny His righteous Judgement, but if we err may we ever err on the side of His mercy, for “blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.”

Peace.

 

[Magnanimity]

the Council, as far as I can find, did not formally condemn outright the restoration of all things.

That is correct. Strictly speaking, the anathemas against origen emanated from the pen of the emperor Justinian. And contemporary scholarship does not attribute the anathemas of the emperor to that council at all (eg, Norman Tanner, ed, decrees of the ecumenical councils).

 

[tonyh12]

On purgatory What the Early Church Believed: Purgatory | Catholic Answers on Hell What the Early Church Believed: Hell | Catholic Answers.

These 2 sources thanks to catholic answers, are verifiable and as you can see are totally Catholic, the early Christian guys here do not speak at all of repentance after death, there is heaven hell or purgatory (purification from effects of sin already forgiven before heaven).

So … perhaps … ask your friend to read these, if they quote any one please get them to include the source ie who said what and when.

 

[Magnanimity]

what of those
whose fire is not(never) quenched and whose worm does
not(never) die??

And what of the hand or foot or eye that causes you to sin? How many of us have removed these parts from our bodies? Pretty much nobody, ever. And yet, our Lord instructed us to do so!

Christ most definitely used hyperbole when He was trying to make an important point (like the moral requirement to help the most vulnerable around us—Matthew 25). A facile, literalist reading of those passages does no one any good. I’m thankful to God that He often taught in parables.

 

[Dan_Defender]

My friend said that the early Church Fathers believed that hell and purgatory were one in the same

Not true. Early Church Fathers such as Tertullian, St Cyprian of Carthage, St Gregory of Nissa, St John Chrysostom and St Augustine make reference to Purgatory in their writings.