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foundthelight
Guest
I am stupid. What is rel’t?
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Relationship, I believe. The OP is concerned about replacing a simple relationship with God with the “system” of Catholicism.
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moen
Guest
Well, I was hoping for something a bit more specific. But I would caution you about dreams, sometimes they are from the Lord and sometimes they aren’t. But in regards to heaviness, I would have to say that is the weight of the cross. As Catholics, we try to take up our cross, and walk the walk of Christ. We don’t just believe in Christ. We try to do everything He told us to do and receive the Sacraments He instituted.
I appreciate this very much. I can’t sleep and thought abou this:didn’t Jesus say “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me…my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”–?"—not rules, regulations, obligations…?
Yet again, after a few moments, I got to thinking: we could find many, many seemingly contradictory statements, where people could (and have) argued and split over such things. I guess, like the Yeshiva teachers would say “Yes, you’re both right”--------there’s mystery and tension in the Word of God. If we all had it figured out completely, we’d have no need for a close rel’t w/ him, because we’d be relying on our “system”—herein the very core of what I said in my original thread. I still hold that it’s JESUS who is the author of our faith, hence obeying HIM we become part of His body–the Church, etc…but we will be looking at His face in heaven and worshiping Him, not the CHurch…make sense? (tongue in cheek)
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Prayer_Warrior;4259547:
I’m still foggy on what specific rules, regulations and obligations that you feel are somehow wrong. Our God is a God of order, not chaos, and frankly if there are no rules on how one should act then there would be chaos. For example, since the dismissal of the “rules” by the protestant reformers, Christian thought, beliefs, and practices have splintered into thousands of pieces.Well, I was hoping for something a bit more specific. But I would caution you about dreams, sometimes they are from the Lord and sometimes they aren’t. But in regards to heaviness, I would have to say that is the weight of the cross. As Catholics, we try to take up our cross, and walk the walk of Christ. We don’t just believe in Christ. We try to do everything He told us to do and receive the Sacraments He instituted.
I appreciate this very much. I can’t sleep and thought abou this:didn’t Jesus say “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me…my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”–?"—not rules, regulations, obligations…?
Yet again, after a few moments, I got to thinking: we could find many, many seemingly contradictory statements, where people could (and have) argued and split over such things. I guess, like the Yeshiva teachers would say “Yes, you’re both right”--------there’s mystery and tension in the Word of God. If we all had it figured out completely, we’d have no need for a close rel’t w/ him, because we’d be relying on our “system”—herein the very core of what I said in my original thread. I still hold that it’s JESUS who is the author of our faith, hence obeying HIM we become part of His body–the Church, etc…but we will be looking at His face in heaven and worshiping Him, not the CHurch…make sense? (tongue in cheek
I think that you and I have a very different approach to Mt 11:28. Jesus says " Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light."
To me that verse does not have anything to do with not having rules. What is a yoke? It is a bar that is spread across to oxen so they can share the load. When we are yoked to Jesus, He carries the burden — of our sin. That is why the burden is light for us, because He has carried the burden. In my opinion, this does not mean we shouldn’t have rules or obligations.
Catholics do not worship the Church, nor do we rely on a “system”. We worship God alone and out of obedience submit to His authority established in His Church. Christ Himself founded the Church upon Peter. He gave the Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven and earth and the power to bind in heaven what is bound on earth. So if the Church, the keeper of the keys, binds something on earth, God will honor it in heaven…that is the power given to the Church. However, God gave the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in it’s teaching-- so that in matters of faith and morals the Church would not be led astray (though it is clear that many Catholics, even in the hierarchy are personally led astray by their own sin). Jesus told Peter to feed the lambs and tend the sheep. That is the job of a shepherd… yet Jesus tells us He is the Shepherd. Jesus renamed him Peter, which means rock… yet Jesus is the Rock. These are just some of the ways that Scripture testifies Jesus was establishing Peter as an authority figure on earth.
Let me ask you a question. If Jesus said to you directly, you need to confess your sins to a priest and I will absolve you through that priest, would you obey Jesus? If you choose to obey His command, does that mean you have placed the rule higher than you placed the Lord?? For Catholics, we believe the “rules” are not from a man-made institution with no authority, but a God-made institution that was given authority from Christ.
Think about the rules that bother you, perhaps we can work through them together.
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moen
Guest
Prayer Warrior:
In my very limited, not yet Catholic understanding--------I guess I mean things like No meat on Fridays, DAys of “Obligation,” —maybe when misunderstood people grow to believe that doing those things means salvation or not doing them means going to hell. I am surrounded in this area by people who were brought up this way, and whose anger toward the Catholic church is PALPABLE. (Please don’t get angry or debate this with me; I am just telling you what I hear often from those I’m in contact with. I’m not making this up)One woman said she was taught that if she sinned in her thoughts, got hit by a car before confessing it, she would go to hell.
I have very dear friends who tell me over and over that the man-made, LEGALISTIC EXPRESSION (not at all in the spirit of Catechism of the CC says—I love reading that book) rules that they were taught somehow along the way shamed them and caused them believe there was NOTHING they could do to please God, so they stopped going to church and in some cases believing in God altogether. IE the emphasis being the “rules” and not the love of God…that they had to follow the rules before God would love them. Make sense?
Again, I am new to this and never intended or meant to invite debate whatsoever, (not telling you the rules are no good) and I perceive (maybe wrongly) “icicles of truth” coming back to me-----icicles that don’t draw people to Catholic Church but do just the opposite. IE It’s the heart and spirit behind the rules that count/the heart’s motives, otherwise Jesus should have not healed on the sabbath (against the rules!) or the priests that were obeying God’s laws by not touching the wounded man and the Samaritan that Jesus said did the kind/Godly thing by helping him. Not doing the “right” thing… MY WHOLE POINT ABOUT THIS THREAD THAT I STARTED IS MY FEAR that the pervasive practice in the CAtholic church is this very thing…along with the icicles!. Please, I mean nothing personal. Please no angry rebuttals from CAtholics, please…I want to become Catholic, please don’t throw barbs back. I don’t want to debate. I understand your desire to defend your faith, but I never intended for you to take it that way. I just want to be assured that I can maintain some simplicity in my rel’t with God after I become Catholic, that’s all. I agree totally that the structure of the CC is very inviting after being in little to no structured churches and having them implode.!
In my very limited, not yet Catholic understanding--------I guess I mean things like No meat on Fridays, DAys of “Obligation,” —maybe when misunderstood people grow to believe that doing those things means salvation or not doing them means going to hell. I am surrounded in this area by people who were brought up this way, and whose anger toward the Catholic church is PALPABLE. (Please don’t get angry or debate this with me; I am just telling you what I hear often from those I’m in contact with. I’m not making this up)One woman said she was taught that if she sinned in her thoughts, got hit by a car before confessing it, she would go to hell.
I have very dear friends who tell me over and over that the man-made, LEGALISTIC EXPRESSION (not at all in the spirit of Catechism of the CC says—I love reading that book) rules that they were taught somehow along the way shamed them and caused them believe there was NOTHING they could do to please God, so they stopped going to church and in some cases believing in God altogether. IE the emphasis being the “rules” and not the love of God…that they had to follow the rules before God would love them. Make sense?
Again, I am new to this and never intended or meant to invite debate whatsoever, (not telling you the rules are no good) and I perceive (maybe wrongly) “icicles of truth” coming back to me-----icicles that don’t draw people to Catholic Church but do just the opposite. IE It’s the heart and spirit behind the rules that count/the heart’s motives, otherwise Jesus should have not healed on the sabbath (against the rules!) or the priests that were obeying God’s laws by not touching the wounded man and the Samaritan that Jesus said did the kind/Godly thing by helping him. Not doing the “right” thing… MY WHOLE POINT ABOUT THIS THREAD THAT I STARTED IS MY FEAR that the pervasive practice in the CAtholic church is this very thing…along with the icicles!. Please, I mean nothing personal. Please no angry rebuttals from CAtholics, please…I want to become Catholic, please don’t throw barbs back. I don’t want to debate. I understand your desire to defend your faith, but I never intended for you to take it that way. I just want to be assured that I can maintain some simplicity in my rel’t with God after I become Catholic, that’s all. I agree totally that the structure of the CC is very inviting after being in little to no structured churches and having them implode.!
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wisdomseeker
Guest
i can tell you don’t be afraid. trust in Jesus in your journey. you can try the CC if it is not what you want you can always leave.
dont worry so much. i think what is happening with you is because of what you have heard about the CC and now you have acquired this fear.
praying the rosary has helped many tormented souls. including me. try to learn i guarantee you will have peace almost instantly.
you will find that things that bother you now, no longer will be an issue… you will begin see things in a different way.
May the peace of our Lord be with you…
it is probably an issue for you, but call upon our Mother Mary for help even if you don’t believe. ask for her intercession, to pray for you.
“**I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
The “No meat on Fridays” has to do with Christ offering His Flesh for us on Good Friday, so we refrain from eating flesh on that day in remembrance of His sacrifice. In the US this is only during Lent, through the rest of the year you can choose to abstain from eating meat OR perform some other act of charity, again, in remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice for us on a Friday.
Re: Days of Obligation - Most families have certain days that they are “obliged” to meet together - Mother’s/Father’s Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, birthdays, etc… The Church’s Holy Days are other special days when the Church Family comes together. There really aren’t that many and I’ve gotten nothing but joy out of celebrating those days with my Church family.
I know my share of angry ex-Catholics, too. It’s a shame they couldn’t see past the “rules” to the love of God behind those rules. God WANTS us to be with Him in Heaven, but He’s not going to FORCE that upon us. He WANTS us to choose Him and His ways over ourselves. The Church, speaking for Christ, tells us the best way to do that. NO person can say for sure if someone does/doesn’t do this, that or the other that they WILL without a doubt go to Hell, because it is not our judgment call to make. Yes, we can say that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin they will go to Hell, but we can’t declare any person to be IN that state of mortal sin. Only God knows. Someone who has a sinful thought and is aware that it is a sinful thought would (one hopes) immediately be sorry and repentant. A sinful thought in and of itself is not a mortal sin.
As a convert, I can tell you that my relationship with the Lord is deeper and richer and more joyful than I ever experienced before. The “rules” are a joy because I know they are for the benefit of my eternal soul, and I WANT to be in the very Presence of the Lord! Praying for you.
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Well, first of all, don’t worry about me being offended. This is a learning process for us all.
So, the ‘no meat on Fridays’ is an excellent example of a “rule” that many Catholic’s practice but some don’t really understand. I am sure you know that pious practices like this were around from OT times. Jesus fasted in the desert as he prayed. He even instructed His disciples that certain demons could not be cast out without fasting and prayer. Fasting is a form of self-denial and it is very healthy for the soul when done in the correct disposition. Abstainence is an extension of fasting, but less rigorous.
Because Our Lord was crucified on Friday, the Church chose Friday as a day of penance for all Catholics. Jesus went to the slaughter for us, and we try our best to deny ourselves in remembrance of Him and in sorrow for the sins He died for. In the United States the Bishops changed it so that you don’t necessarily have to abstain from meat (in fact, that is appropriate if giving up meat isn’t something important to you). You can give up coffee for the day, you can give up desserts, etc. Abstaining should not be done because it is a rule, it is done because we love the Lord, we follow His example, and we are sorry for our sins. The Church instituted this spiritual discipline to help keep her people holy. But I can say that in terms of teaching the people exactly why they were doing this, they didn’t do such a good job.
Ask yourself a question. If Jesus was sinless and had all the power of God, why on earth would He need to fast (or pray)? It isn’t because He needed to do it for Himself. It is because His whole life was one big example of how we should be. He did it, because He desires us to do it. The world around us seems to think that these examples of Jesus are out of date or out of touch with modern spirituality. But the Church has not conformed to the world around us. Hope that makes some sense. Here is a link with scriptural references, I find the NT ones very compelling.
I will post on the issue of mortal sin in a separate post. I have a Bible study meeting in a little bit and have to get ready.
So, the ‘no meat on Fridays’ is an excellent example of a “rule” that many Catholic’s practice but some don’t really understand. I am sure you know that pious practices like this were around from OT times. Jesus fasted in the desert as he prayed. He even instructed His disciples that certain demons could not be cast out without fasting and prayer. Fasting is a form of self-denial and it is very healthy for the soul when done in the correct disposition. Abstainence is an extension of fasting, but less rigorous.
Because Our Lord was crucified on Friday, the Church chose Friday as a day of penance for all Catholics. Jesus went to the slaughter for us, and we try our best to deny ourselves in remembrance of Him and in sorrow for the sins He died for. In the United States the Bishops changed it so that you don’t necessarily have to abstain from meat (in fact, that is appropriate if giving up meat isn’t something important to you). You can give up coffee for the day, you can give up desserts, etc. Abstaining should not be done because it is a rule, it is done because we love the Lord, we follow His example, and we are sorry for our sins. The Church instituted this spiritual discipline to help keep her people holy. But I can say that in terms of teaching the people exactly why they were doing this, they didn’t do such a good job.
Ask yourself a question. If Jesus was sinless and had all the power of God, why on earth would He need to fast (or pray)? It isn’t because He needed to do it for Himself. It is because His whole life was one big example of how we should be. He did it, because He desires us to do it. The world around us seems to think that these examples of Jesus are out of date or out of touch with modern spirituality. But the Church has not conformed to the world around us. Hope that makes some sense. Here is a link with scriptural references, I find the NT ones very compelling.
I will post on the issue of mortal sin in a separate post. I have a Bible study meeting in a little bit and have to get ready.
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