Request help with Isaiah 65

[Mijoy2]

This has possibly been addressed many times in these forums. If this is so, I apologize in advance.

My point of interest in this thread is Isaiah 65 17:20. Attached is the passage.

My question is not limited to these verses but pertains more to the concept of the Isaiah’s prophecy of a new Heaven and a new Earth.

This prophecy, best I can ascertain, is not in reference to an afterlife. Conversly it appears in reference to a human existence.

I do not beleive this prophecy has already been fulfilled in that there has never been a time (since Moses time) that the life expentency surpased 100 years. Nor has there ever been a time when all infants survived beyond a few days following thier birth.

I do not recall any Catholic teaching suggesting a time such as this is yet to come.

However this is not a false prophecy since it is in the bible and we all know the bible doesn’t contain false prophecy.

Allt hat is left is my misunderstanding of which I request your assistance.

Thanks much in advance,
–Mike

**New Heavens and a New Earth **

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a] a hundred
will be considered accursed. 21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

 

[Jade]

Mijoy2:

**New Heavens and a New Earth **

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a] a hundred
will be considered accursed. 21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

Hello Mijoy!

I’m not sure I can help you, but I’ll try me best!

Regarding the New Heavens and the New Earth, I’d say that you are correct to say that it is not a physical thing. I have a feeling it is more spiritual than anything else. Could it be that the New Heavens and the New Earth is when the Holy Spirit comes and transforms us into a ‘new heaven and earth’, through the power of the Holy Spirit? When we ‘die to our self’ and live compleatly with and in Him?
When we surrender totally to God and let Him do what he will in us. It would be a new heaven and new earth then b/c we would be allowing and wanting with all of our hearts to do God’s Will and not hindering Him to work in us b/c we are ‘caught up’ in the things of this world?

Just a thought. Let me know what you think.

I have a feeling also that the age reference is a symbolic one, just as Jersusalem may refer to the Church?
And the bit about infants living a few days and old men not living out their days…chills. Just think of abortion and people not wanting older people to live…

And by the way, I think the new heavens and new earth is happening already. How wonderful are the ways of the Lord!!

Take Care,
Jade.

 

[Mijoy2]

Jade:

Hello Mijoy!

I’m not sure I can help you, but I’ll try me best!

Regarding the New Heavens and the New Earth, I’d say that you are correct to say that it is not a physical thing. I have a feeling it is more spiritual than anything else. Could it be that the New Heavens and the New Earth is when the Holy Spirit comes and transforms us into a ‘new heaven and earth’, through the power of the Holy Spirit? When we ‘die to our self’ and live compleatly with and in Him?
When we surrender totally to God and let Him do what he will in us. It would be a new heaven and new earth then b/c we would be allowing and wanting with all of our hearts to do God’s Will and not hindering Him to work in us b/c we are ‘caught up’ in the things of this world?

Just a thought. Let me know what you think.

I have a feeling also that the age reference is a symbolic one, just as Jersusalem may refer to the Church?
And the bit about infants living a few days and old men not living out their days…chills. Just think of abortion and people not wanting older people to live…

And by the way, I think the new heavens and new earth is happening already. How wonderful are the ways of the Lord!!

Take Care,
Jade.

Jade,

Thank you for your response. I too attempted to envision these passages (especially verse 20) as possibly somehow symbolic in nature. But, after closer review, I’d say the wording does not present itself as being symbolic. The lion and the lamb thing maybe, but the concept of infants not dying and the concept of a well defined longevity is written in more literal form. Or a form to be taken literarily, I’d presume. It’s simply too specific.

I attempted to gather some information on the net regarding this. In the short time I had I was able find a reference that suggested that the prophecy was trumphed by some prohecy that followed. Suggeesting that because the Isrealites did not do thier part (what part I am not sure) that prophecy did not come to pass. I’m banking a bit on discovering some logic in this as I pursue this.

I’d find it quite troubling to discover that this passage is meant to be taken as symbolism. I say this because, if so, I wouldn’t know what to believe. I would lose more faith in anyones ability to interpret the bible. It’s only logical that God would have inspired a book that was understandable.

 

[Mijoy2]

In reading it again I noticed the word “will”, not “may” or “might” or “maybe”.

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind

Anyone?

 

[Marie]

John Paul II - We look to a new heaven and a new earth

Excellent read on the subject.

Heartened by this certainty, Christians walk courageously on the world’s highways, seeking to follow in God’s footsteps and to cooperate with him in giving birth to a horizon in which "steadfast love and faithfulness will meet; righteousness and peace will kiss each other"I] (Ps 85 [84]: 11).

 

[Dr.Colossus]

From my understanding, this passage is not symbolic. It refers to events which will follow the End Times and the return of Christ.

Remember that, in the beginning, God created Man to live on Earth, while He remained in Heaven, though in perfect communion with each other. With the fall of Man, however, this initial perfection was destroyed and instead set in motion the salvific plan of Christ. Following Christ’s victory on Calvary and His glorious return at the End of Time, the old Heaven and Earth will pass away, and God will once again act as Creator to restore the perfection that was lost.

 

[Mijoy2]

Dr. Colossus:

From my understanding, this passage is not symbolic. It refers to events which will follow the End Times and the return of Christ.

Remember that, in the beginning, God created Man to live on Earth, while He remained in Heaven, though in perfect communion with each other. With the fall of Man, however, this initial perfection was destroyed and instead set in motion the salvific plan of Christ. Following Christ’s victory on Calvary and His glorious return at the End of Time, the old Heaven and Earth will pass away, and God will once again act as Creator to restore the perfection that was lost.

Thank you Dr. Colossus. Although I thought this was purely evangelical protestant belief (tribulation).

Thank you too Marie, I will most certainly read John Paul II article on this.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Mijoy2:

Thank you Dr. Colossus. Although I thought this was purely evangelical protestant belief (tribulation).

The Tribulation is Catholic belief as well, but the idea of the Rapture and a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is foreign to Catholic theology.

 

[Mijoy2]

John Paul II - We look to a new heaven and a new earth

Excellent read on the subject.

Heartened by this certainty, Christians walk courageously on the world’s highways, seeking to follow in God’s footsteps and to cooperate with him in giving birth to a horizon in which "steadfast love and faithfulness will meet; righteousness and peace will kiss each other"I] (Ps 85 [84]: 11).

I read this and it is quite beautiful. However, as most things do, it caused more questions then gave answers.

Are we to believe we are on a journey to this paradise? Will it proceed the second coming or follow it?

It gives a differing view of so many other threads I read in these forums.

Pope John Paul II states: “Thus a theme of great importance, which has always engaged the Church’s work and reflection, opens before us. Without falling into the opposite extremes of holy isolation or secularism, Christians must also express their hope within the structures of secular life. If the kingdom is divine and eternal, it is still sown in time and space: it is “in the midst of us”, as Jesus says”

Very interesting and compelling point he made here. I for one used to be the later (secularism), lately more the former (isolation). Especially with all the talk of the end times. I have been of the mindset, “okay already, if the endtimes are near lets get on with it already while I sit back and watch it unfold”.

Hmmm so confusing. Are we going to anniliate ourselves as so many believe, or are we going to overcome evil with divine assistance and be rewarded by God with the things in Isaiah 65?

Or do I still have the whole thing dreadfully wrong?

 

[Mijoy2]

Anyone else?