Research on Church History

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HJProtestant said:
Back to the history of the Church…let’s settle one thing. The Catholic Church was NOT the first church as is claimed by many. Judaism was the first church, period.
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Really? And your evidence for this last statement is…?

I could have sworn there was evidence for religions well older than Judaism.
 
I love the comment that Judaism was the first church. Along that line I have a question: Since most Christians claim that only Christians can get to Heaven, are they saying that Christ didn’t make it since He was Jewish? Just wondering what others think about this. I believe that Christ wants each of us to be with HIm in Heaven.
 
Teflon93 said:
Really? And your evidence for this last statement is…?

I could have sworn there was evidence for religions well older than Judaism.
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Really?! Are you talking about secular religions or cults? I am speaking only of religions based on the one true God.

Where is this evidence? I am using the Bible as evidence.

Regardless, you have just acknowledged that the Catholic Church was not “first”. This was my point.
 
HJProtestant said:
Really?! Are you talking about secular religions or cults? I am speaking only of religions based on the one true God.

Where is this evidence? I am using the Bible as evidence.

Regardless, you have just acknowledged that the Catholic Church was not “first”. This was my point.
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So you are an observant Jew, then?
 
Teflon93 said:
So you are an observant Jew, then?
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Hardly. My point is that I have seen/heard/read SO MANY times the Catholic argument that all Protestant churches can trace their roots back to the Catholic church and use this argument to somehow prove the Catholic church is therefore the only “true church”…when in fact all God-believing churches can be traced back to Judaism.
 
pigtown said:
I love the comment that Judaism was the first church. Along that line I have a question: Since most Christians claim that only Christians can get to Heaven, are they saying that Christ didn’t make it since He was Jewish? Just wondering what others think about this. I believe that Christ wants each of us to be with HIm in Heaven.
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The NT tells us that after Christ died to wipe out our sin, we were to look to Him for our salvation instead of following “the law” (Judaism). This was the true Reformation. Yes, one must be a “Christian” in the sense that you are using it (I really don’t like the term–too broad) to be saved (go to heaven). You could think of Jesus’ death as the first “Christian” death. Jesus was the original reformer and yes, wanted all to be with him in heaven-Jews and Gentiles alike, which is why some apostles were sent to teach Jews and others Gentiles. This was the end of the "Chosen People era…He has chosen us all…we must choose Him to be saved.
 
HJProtestant said:
Hardly. My point is that I have seen/heard/read SO MANY times the Catholic argument that all Protestant churches can trace their roots back to the Catholic church and use this argument to somehow prove the Catholic church is therefore the only “true church”…when in fact all God-believing churches can be traced back to Judaism.
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And so between Judaism (3000 BC), the Crucifixion (33 AD) and Protestantism (1517 AD), which church represented Christendom?

If you’re inclined to acknowledge our Orthodox brethren, we can refine this to which church represented all of Christendom between 33 AD and 1054 AD?
 
Chart of the early Church Fathers (with Pictures!)

religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/church_fathers.htm

Early Church Fathers Letters

newadvent.org/fathers/

St. Ignatius of Antioch was the third bishop of Antioch. He was ordained by St. Peter himself (the 1st bishop of Antioch) and a student of St. John the Apostle. It is in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans in chapter 8 we read:

Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

St. Ignatius was martyred around 110ad.

St. Peter was our 1st Pope

The List of popes ( it was our 218th pope who excommunicated Martin Luther)

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
 
Every denomiation including the non-denominations can be traced back to the Catholic Church!

Amish

Who founded it?

Jacob Amman in 1693

What was he before that?

Mennonite

Who founded that?

Menno Simons in 1525

What was he before that?

Anabaptist

Who founded that?

Thomas Munzer and Nicholas Storch in 1521

What were they before that?

Catholic

Who founded that?

Jesus around 33ad.
 
That was fun lets do it again

Quakers

Who founded it?

George Fox in 1649

What was he before that?

Presbyterian

Who founded it?

John Knox in 1560

What was he before that?

Calvinist

Who founded it?

John Calvin in 1555

What was he before that?

Catholic

Who founded it?

Jesus around 33ad.
 
Ok last one,then you try.

Pentecostal

Who founded it?

Charles Fox Parham in 1901

What was he before?

Methodist

Who founded it?

James and Charles Wesley in 1744

What were they?

Church of England

Who started it?

King Henry the VIII in 1534

What was he before?

Catholic

Who founded it ?

Jesus around 33ad.

Matthew 16:18:
18And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Code: 
Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
Matthew 16:19:
19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matthew 18:17-18:
17And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matthew 28:20:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world

Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Luke 10:16:
16He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Luke 22:32:

32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).
 
JimRyan said:
My friend started a blog on the history of the “church”. He is not necessarily referring to Catholicism, but he would like a few Catholic voices to respond as to why the Catholic church is the one True church (he is a Protestant). If a few of you could read his posts and voice in it would be appreciated. Here’s the link:

danielhauser.blogspot.com/
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Well the entire so called primitive church was the very same catholic church. There were no diferent churches, there were no diferente rites or customs, Every primitve christian comunity celebrated the eucarist , there was just one universal primitive church and it was called by the diciples of the apostoels as Catholic that means"Universal".

I have read a little about the Church Fathers and I prepared some quotes about them aobut the catholics doctrines, hope you will enyoi it .

On the unity of the one primitive and universal church

St Irenaus Adversus Haereses (Book I, Chapter 10)
  1. As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shines everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it.
    …
    while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.
    end quote.
On the sola scripture:
  1. The veneration and fidelity of the fathers regarding the sacred books may be compared to their veneration and fidelity to tradition. They do not consider themselves masters, but servants of the Sacred Scriptures since they received them from the church, Read and commented on them in and for the church according to the rule of faith proposed and illustrated by ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition. St. Irenaeus, the great lover of the sacred books, maintains that whoever wishes to know the true must look at the tradition of the apostles. 29 He adds that even if the apostles had not left us the Scriptures, tradition would have been enough for our instruction and salvation. 30
    Origen himself, who studied the Scriptures with so much love and passion and worked so much for their comprehension, openly states that only those must be believed as truths of faith that in no way depart from “ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition”. 31
    thereby making tradition the interpretative norm of Scripture. Later, St. Augustine, who found his “delight” in meditation on Scripture, 32 stated this marvelously luminous and sound principle that again refers to tradition: “I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church had not led me to do so” 33.
it continues…
 
On the eucharist

St Ignatious of antioch diciple of John, Epistle to the Philadelphians

Chapter 4. Have but one Eucharist,
Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics.
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.

St Justin Martyr The First Apology

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist.
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

St Cyril bishop of Jerusalem On the Body and Blood of Christ.

on the priesthood

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop.
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Chapter 9. Honour the bishop.
Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.

On the perpetual virginity of Mary
The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary by St Jerome
 
JimRyan said:
My friend started a blog on the history of the “church”. He is not necessarily referring to Catholicism, but he would like a few Catholic voices to respond as to why the Catholic church is the one True church (he is a Protestant). If a few of you could read his posts and voice in it would be appreciated. Here’s the link:

danielhauser.blogspot.com/
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We are not allowed to swarm other forums and blogs. Sometimes things get heated over there and that makes for bad relations.

Here are some reliable sources on the History of the Church:

Apostolic Succession

A Timeline of Catholic Church history

Catholic Doctrine Flow Chart

The 21 Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church

For other questions you can go to:

The Vatican

Catholic Answers Library

Catholic Bridge
 
jimmy85 said:
On the eucharist

St Ignatious of antioch diciple of John, Epistle to the Philadelphians

Chapter 4. Have but one Eucharist,
Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics.
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.

St Justin Martyr The First Apology

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist.
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

St Cyril bishop of Jerusalem On the Body and Blood of Christ.

on the priesthood

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop.
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Chapter 9. Honour the bishop.
Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.

On the perpetual virginity of Mary
The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary by St Jerome
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You are right there,👍 But my past experiences dealing with the opposers to our faith, the “sola scriptura” method still clings to their tastes. Of course, there are passages in the holy bible that need explanations thru historical proofs, but won’t work to die-hards. Scripture versus scripture are their likes, so let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and satisfies them thru scripture.
 
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