Resources for Caritas in Veritate Catholics Who like the TLM

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I am wondering about writers, organizations, websites, any type of information that supports the following line of thinking:

Wanting to reverse the disastrous liturgical and observance changes that came with Vatican II; BUT accepting the Council’s openness to lay participation AND the fullness of Catholic social teaching (not just opposition to abortion but support for a preferential option for the poor).

In other words, what resources are there for Catholics who are liturgical conservatives but social progressives in the Caritas mold?
 
L2P2 said:
I am wondering about writers, organizations, websites, any type of information that supports the following line of thinking:

Wanting to reverse the disastrous liturgical and observance changes that came with Vatican II; BUT accepting the Council’s openness to lay participation AND the fullness of Catholic social teaching (not just opposition to abortion but support for a preferential option for the poor).

In other words, what resources are there for Catholics who are liturgical conservatives but social progressives in the Caritas mold?
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I’m not sure if I’m answering your question, but regardless of what form the the Latin Rite mass you prefer, the assent to the enyclical and its application in our daily lives is not affected by the form of the mass that one prefers.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
regardless of what form the the Latin Rite mass you prefer, the assent to the enyclical and its application in our daily lives is not affected by the form of the mass that one prefers.
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True in theory, certainly. But, in practice, many who prefer the traditional Mass put less emphasis on Catholic social issues such as poverty and the death penalty.
 
L2P2 said:
True in theory, certainly. But, in practice, many who prefer the traditional Mass put less emphasis on Catholic social issues such as poverty and the death penalty.
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In that case, the individuals to whom you refer need to change their practice, not the form of the mass that they prefer. If one is so preocuppied with the form of the mass that one does balance one’s spiritual life with the apostolic life and the social teachings of the Church, the failure is on the part of the individual, not the form of the mass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
L2P2 said:
I am wondering about writers, organizations, websites, any type of information that supports the following line of thinking:

Wanting to reverse the disastrous liturgical and observance changes that came with Vatican II; BUT accepting the Council’s openness to lay participation AND the fullness of Catholic social teaching (not just opposition to abortion but support for a preferential option for the poor).

In other words, what resources are there for Catholics who are liturgical conservatives but social progressives in the Caritas mold?
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I think you’re describing exactly the same thoughts I’ve had for a long time. There’s such a polarity in our Church. At one extreme you have people who seem to value the signs of grace more than the reality behind them, and spend all their time fussing about liturgical abuses or whether a certain mass was valid. At the other extreme there are people in the social justice crowd who don’t seem to care at all about liturgy and don’t realize that the liturgy is the primarily way that we approach God as Catholics. Both approaches are mistaken, I think. My sincere hope for the future is that the post-council craziness will fade away and we’ll have a return to beautiful sacred liturgy, but we’ll keep the more positive understanding of the place of the laity that the council brought. Then we can all just be Catholic together, rather than being conservative or liberal, traditional or progressive or whatever categories people put themselves in. But enough from me, lets hear from people who really know what they’re talking about.
 
PadraigPearce said:
I think you’re describing exactly the same thoughts I’ve had for a long time. There’s such a polarity in our Church. At one extreme you have people who seem to value the signs of grace more than the reality behind them, and spend all their time fussing about liturgical abuses or whether a certain mass was valid. At the other extreme there are people in the social justice crowd who don’t seem to care at all about liturgy and don’t realize that the liturgy is the primarily way that we approach God as Catholics. Both approaches are mistaken, I think. My sincere hope for the future is that the post-council craziness will fade away and we’ll have a return to beautiful sacred liturgy, but we’ll keep the more positive understanding of the place of the laity that the council brought. Then we can all just be Catholic together, rather than being conservative or liberal, traditional or progressive or whatever categories people put themselves in. But enough from me, lets hear from people who really know what they’re talking about.
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I stand my by original position. People need to establish balance in their lives. The form of the liturgy and the moral obligations that we have in society are not mutually exclusive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
I stand my by original position. People need to establish balance in their lives. The form of the liturgy and the moral obligations that we have in society are not mutually exclusive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Brother JR,

Please understand that I am in no way challenging your position. What you are describing is certainly the ideal. The problem, though, is that it does not get applied enough in reality.

Part of the point, it seems to me, of Caritas in Veritate is precisely to overcome this duality in Catholic social/political affiliation.
PadraigPearce said:
There’s such a polarity in our Church.
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I agree wholeheartedly.

Still hoping, too, for reading suggestions. Let me phrase it another way: What Catholic theologians embrace traditional liturgy AND social justice including but not limited to abortion? You could say this, certainly, about Gustavo Guttierez, but I am looking for mainstream theologians.
 
L2P2 said:
Still hoping, too, for reading suggestions. Let me phrase it another way: What Catholic theologians embrace traditional liturgy AND social justice including but not limited to abortion? You could say this, certainly, about Gustavo Guttierez, but I am looking for mainstream theologians.
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I think Alice von Hildebrand would be one of those that you might be interested in reading. Also, Cardinal Avery Dulles, meets those criteria.
 
Corki said:
I think Alice von Hildebrand would be one of those that you might be interested in reading. Also, Cardinal Avery Dulles, meets those criteria.
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Alice and Dietrich von Hildebrand, excellent suggestion. Dietrich Von Hildebrand strikes me as someone who would have been considered a liberal before vatican 2 but would now be classed as a reactionary conservative. Try to get ahold of his book Trojan Horse in the City of God. I don’t know if Jaques Maritain wrote much about the liturgy, but he wrote a lot about Catholic political involvement. He’d be a good choice too. And I’m sure you’ve already thought of this, but read Pope Benedict himself. Read his other encyclicals and some of his books he wrote when he was a Cardinal.
 
Well most important is the spiritual life and prayer. The Sacrifice of the Mass, the Divine Office, the Rosary, the Angelus, Scripture Study. God should be the focus of our lives, we should be Christocentric, all things for Christ.

That said the issue of social teaching is present of course. However the question is what level to take it to. “Traditional” Catholics are obviously going to be very pro-life, but not many of them are going to pro-life rallies on Sunday morning, they’re going to Mass. They’re going to be where God is, not where man is.

I see many “modern” (not Modernist) Catholics who embrace the pro-life, pro-family movements, but some of them rarely go to Mass. Let’s also remember the idea of the State being Holy is a Byzantine idea. For the first 1,000 years the Church and Government were separate (until Unam Sanctam :crying:) then St. Pius V reminded us of the true function of the Papacy.

Christ himself says that his Kingdom is not of this world, but of the next. Let’s put our hearts and minds there.

Point is God beats politics every time, ideally a Catholic should be apolitical (while holding the correct teachings on abortion and other things). By apolitical I mean not supporting Party A or Candidate B.

Laus Deo
 
Of course, the Mass and salvation of souls is more important. However, no matter what form of the Roman Rite you go to, we must remember to care for the poor and one another. This is also very important.

I hate the idea of having to align yourself with one side. The traditionalists always have to be completely right and the progressives completely left it seems. It’s the same way with politics. Both sides have some things which are correct. It’s more important to pick the right teachings than to pick sides.
 
Well the ironic thing is that the social teachings are directly connected with the Gospel.

Matthew 25:45 “Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.”

This isn’t a right/left liberal/conservative thing. It’s an orthodox or heterodox issue.

Laus Deo
 
If any Catholic wants to see and understand how you bring together the liturgical life and the apostolate, a very good place to go to is to the founders of the mendicant orders: Franciscans, Mercedarians, Dominicans, Carmelites, and Augustinians.

In these religious families you find a balance between the contemplative life, which revolves around the full liturgy: Eucharist and Hours and the active apostolate in the world. They are wonderful. If you can get your hands on the biogaphies of their founders and on their rules and constitutions, you can see how one balances the two.

Now, I should throw in a disclaimer. This is not easy. Not every menticant gets it right. It’s a struggle or a penance as in conversion or cross, to get it right. It takes discipline and focus. But it has been done by millions throughout history. Some have even become doctors of the Church.

The original writings are the source upon which the mendicants build their way of life. One book that comes to mind is Praying With St. Augustine another is The Disciple and the Master, the writings of St. Bonaventure on St. Francis and from the Dominican tradition, there are The Writings of Master Eckert. You can also find a good explanation written by Francis de Sales in his famous work Introduction to the Devout Life. De Sales writing was for the benefit of the laity who wanted to bring together the contemplative and the active apostolate.

I hope some of these readings help, if you can get your hands on them. Some are online, esepciallyt he rules of the mendicants.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thank you everyone for the reading suggestions!! I am especially keen to pursue the bios of founders of the mendicant orders. Thank you!!
 
You know, that suggestion was a really good one. I’ve tended to learn about the founders of the mendicant orders in a secondhand way, and reading what they actually wrote will probably be incredibly helpful.

Maybe some of us can bump this thread as we go along, just to chat about this?
 
Rosa_Centifolia said:
You know, that suggestion was a really good one. I’ve tended to learn about the founders of the mendicant orders in a secondhand way, and reading what they actually wrote will probably be incredibly helpful.

Maybe some of us can bump this thread as we go along, just to chat about this?
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I would be happy to help, if the postes would like.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
I would be happy to help, if the posters would like.
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Brother, I am sorry for the delay in responding, but I’ve been away, and I have a large writing project looming.

I would very much like to follow up on your suggestion of reading the biographies of founders of mendicant orders. I’m in the process of looking up appropriate books, but I am wondering whether you might have suggestions.

Here for the time being is the Wikipedia entry on religious who take vows of poverty. I am assuming that St. Francis, St. Bertold (?), and St. Dominic are the most likely suspects for study.

Again, thank you for your suggestion.
 
I would like to echo the advice to read The Soul of the Apostolate. The version that was written by a monk from Gesthemany in Kentucky explains in a footnote that some other translation by an American was a mistranslation. This translator took time to point out those places in his footnotes.

This Soul of the Apostolate seems to contradict the Jacques Maritain, CWM and Intetrity bunch in their idea of Social Justice and Catholic Action.

The Douay-Rheims Bible and the Catechism Explained (Tan Books) are easy to read and are precise and concise. The DRB of course covers the Gospel and if you are able to get a Haydock DRB you will also have the commentary of the saints and Fathers of the Church. No teaching in any book can validly contradict these books and still be Catholic, so these books reduce the need for “searching”.

The Catechism Explained covers the Baltimore Catechism in depth. Pro-life? See the Explanations for the 5th Commandment. Social Justice? See the Explanations for the 7th and 10th Commandments - they show that Socialism and Communism and other such isms violate the 7th and 10th Commandments.

Once you know the Catholic principles all issues like liturgy, pro-life, and socio-political life become easy to understand!

Mary
www.Roman-Catholic-Catechism.com/
feeds.feedburner.com/CatholicCatechismBlog
 
L2P2 said:
Brother, I am sorry for the delay in responding, but I’ve been away, and I have a large writing project looming.

I would very much like to follow up on your suggestion of reading the biographies of founders of mendicant orders. I’m in the process of looking up appropriate books, but I am wondering whether you might have suggestions.

Here for the time being is the Wikipedia entry on religious who take vows of poverty. I am assuming that St. Francis, St. Bertold (?), and St. Dominic are the most likely suspects for study.

Again, thank you for your suggestion.
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If anyone else is interested in reading about the founders of the mendicant orders and their writings. I would suggest that you begin with Francis of Assisi and Dominic. They are the most prominent of the mendicants. The other mendicant orders took their lead from them.

You can find Bonaventure’s biography of St. Francis of Assisi to be most helpful. The writings of the St. Francis of Assisi can be read online.

sacred-texts.com/chr/wosf/index.htm

Or you can purchase the book Francis and Clare edited by Regis Armstrong, OFM Cap et al on amazon.com.

The writings of St. Dominic can be found online

domcentral.org/trad/domwork/default.htm

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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