Resources for talking with Mormons

[Casen]

Jerusha:

I think we have already discussed that, Casen. I would rather not repost. If you missed it, you can look it up in my past posts.

Sorry Jerusha, I looked at some of your past posts but didn’t find anything earthshattering. Could you post a link?

 

[donbjc]

As the husband of an LDS lady, I have taken the “lessons”, read the Book of Mormon and gone to the LDS church at least once a month for over 6 years.
I have not been converted, but I also found they are not weird and their beliefs are very sincere and down to earth(easy to understand) I have simply let them know I am a lifelong Catholic with no intention of becoming Mormon. They are very cordial and I really miss those great young men when they don’t come around. They listen politely when I tell them what Catholics believe and some have even been from Catholic families and they tell the story of their families conversion, which is always very interesting. They offer help around the house and yard, which is very tempting since I am paralyzed on the right side.
I would advise you not to converse with them if you do not want to be converted, they have been raised since birth with intense training in the scriptures. From the age of 3 years old they attend class every Sunday and study and learn about Jesus and the Bible and Book of Mormon, when they are in high school they go to seminary for an hour every morning before school and so by the time they are adults they have more religious training than most ministers or priests. Most of them have their scriptures memorized and can go directly to any place in the Bible and answer any question you might have. I find them incredibly fascinating. We are having two of them to dinner tomorrow night. They are going to show us a new church movie, and I am looking forward to seeing it, but I would advise anyone who does not know his Catholic religion very well to have nothing to do with them. You must be very strong in the Catholic religion to discuss religion with them, or they will run circles around you. Good luck,
Don

 

[Brad_Haas]

Hi Don,

In my experience, the intense training since a young age has not focused on the whole of scripture. To give an example, an LDS I know had no idea that Genesis places the garden of Eden among the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It’s right there at the beginning of Genesis, but she’d never heard of that before.

One’s experience will vary greatly, of course, but in fact I know few LDS who are really good at defending their faith. They’ll do it up to a point, but then back off. Casen is a fine example of a good LDS apologist, but in my experience, he’s exceptional.

That aside, you have said you don’t find LDS beliefs to be weird and whatnot. That’s commendable, but I ask you to remember that they’re still not true. One issue that for me looms above all others is that I cannot find a purpose for existence if LDS beliefs are true. Ask yourself: if I am not made by anything else, and yet I cannot find fulfillment in myself, where am I to find it? In other words, if LDS beliefs are true and there is no supreme God who created everything that exists, but rather matter and people exist in a chain stretching infinitely back (as atheists claim about the material world), what can be the point of existence?

As Catholic Christians, we know whence we came, why we have value, and what our goal is - to all three, the answer is God. Scripture says, I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being. God alone made us, and in God alone will we find eternal joy.

P.S. Tell BJ hi, we miss her.

 

[amgid]

Brad Haas:

In my experience, the intense training since a young age has not focused on the whole of scripture. To give an example, an LDS I know had no idea that Genesis places the garden of Eden among the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It’s right there at the beginning of Genesis, but she’d never heard of that before.

Actually, Genesis doesn’t “places the garden of Eden among the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.” The word Tigris isn’t even mentioned in the Bible! It would be a good idea if you would give references for your scriptural quotes, so that people (as well as yourself) would know what you are talking about.

One’s experience will vary greatly, of course, but in fact I know few LDS who are really good at defending their faith. They’ll do it up to a point, but then back off.

Some are better than others. They have different talents. Some are good at one thing, some at something else. It is true, though, that LDS are instructed by their leaders to get to know their scriptures; and most of them try to follow that counsel.

Casen is a fine example of a good LDS apologist, but in my experience, he’s exceptional.

I agree that Casen is “a fine example of a good LDS apologist”!

That aside, you have said you don’t find LDS beliefs to be weird and whatnot. That’s commendable, but I ask you to remember that they’re still not true.

And I assure you that they are still very true!

One issue that for me looms above all others is that I cannot find a purpose for existence if LDS beliefs are true.

I have to disappoint you with that one. There is more “purpose for existence” in LDS theology than in any other.

Ask yourself: if I am not made by anything else, and yet I cannot find fulfillment in myself, where am I to find it?

That is not what we believe. We don’t believe that “we are not made by anything else”. We are made by God. That is what LDS doctrine teaches.

In other words, if LDS beliefs are true and there is no supreme God who created everything that exists, . . .

There is a “supreme God who created everything that exists;” but He did not create them out of nothing. The raw materials out which they were created have always existed. There is nothing in the Bible that says that God made everything out of nothing. On the contrary, all the indications are that both the early Christians as well as the ancient Jews believed in creation out of pre-existent matter. Belief in the pre-existence of matter does not detract from our total dependence on God as the supreme Creator, Provider, Savior and Redeemer of the universe. You must have a strange sense of logic if you think that it does.

. . . but rather matter and people exist in a chain stretching infinitely back (as atheists claim about the material world), what can be the point of existence?

We don’t believe that “matter and people existed in a chain stretching infinitely back”. We believe that God created all things from pre-existent matter, and “people” were created by God.

As Catholic Christians, we know whence we came, why we have value, and what our goal is - to all three, the answer is God.

Who has put you so on the defensive that you now have to call yourself a “Catholic Christian”? I haven’t! As for the rest, I assure you that we have a better idea than you do as to “whence we came, and why we have value . . .”, and the answer certainly is “God”.

Scripture says, I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.

I noticed that you had not given the source of your quote. Would you mind supplying the reference please?

God alone made us, and in God alone will we find eternal joy.

I assure you that LDS also believe that “God alone made us, and in God alone will we find eternal joy.” Your deliberate misrepresentation of LDS belief doesn’t It don’t wash. It don’t fool nobody.

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid:

Actually, Genesis doesn’t “places the garden of Eden among the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.” The word Tigris isn’t even mentioned in the Bible! It would be a good idea if you would give references for your scriptural quotes, so that people (as well as yourself) would know what you are talking about.

Genesis 2:10 actualy makes this very clear. It certainly was NOT in Missouri.

amgid:

Some are better than others. They have different talents. Some are good at one thing, some at something else. It is true, though, that LDS are instructed by their leaders to get to know their scriptures; and most of them try to follow that counsel.

I would agree with this. I would point out though that the primary scriptural emphasis by LDS leaders is on reading and learning the BoM.

amgid:

I agree that Casen is “a fine example of a good LDS apologist”!

OK

amgid:

And I assure you that they are still very true!

This is obviously a matter of defintion. Many LDS beliefs DO appear “wierd” to many people. Many LDS have no clue what the beliefs of the LDS church really are. (this makes them ni different than most other churches) I think we have seen time and again though that Joe Smith made up the main points of LDS doctrine. (BoM, D&C, PoGP, Temple Ceremony)

amgid:

I have to disappoint you with that one. There is more “purpose for existence” in LDS theology than in any other.

Once again a matter of opinion but in any case it is a wrong purpose. (Men becoming Gods) It is Satans purpose to tempt men into beleiveing this.

amgid:

That is not what we believe. We don’t believe that “we are not made by anything else”. We are made by God. That is what LDS doctrine teaches.

Well now that’s downright deceitful. LDS prophets have always taught that we have always existed. Not just as raw materials either. They teach that we have always existed as unique individual “intelligences” that were “born” to God, not created by him. He made our physical mortal bodies only according to LDS belief and even that was not by himself.

amgid:

There is a “supreme God who created everything that exists;” but He did not create them out of nothing. The raw materials out which they were created have always existed. There is nothing in the Bible that says that God made everything out of nothing. On the contrary, all the indications are that both the early Christians as well as the ancient Jews believed in creation out of pre-existent matter. Belief in the pre-existence of matter does not detract from our total dependence on God as the supreme Creator, Provider, Savior and Redeemer of the universe. You must have a strange sense of logic if you think that it does.

LDS doctrine only makes our God “supreme” to us. It teaches that he had a God and that God had a God and so on. Making this into a debate on ex-nihilo creation obscures the issue. LDS doctrine teaches an endless chain of Gods each making their own wordls (presumably with the assisitance of their spirit children who are brought in form the already existent “intelligences”)

amgid:

We don’t believe that “matter and people existed in a chain stretching infinitely back”. We believe that God created all things from pre-existent matter, and “people” were created by God.

Only the bodies. The matter and “intelligences” always existed according to LDS doctrine.

amgid:

Who has put you so on the defensive that you now have to call yourself a “Catholic Christian”? I haven’t! As for the rest, I assure you that we have a better idea than you do as to “whence we came, and why we have value . . .”, and the answer certainly is “God”.

What arrogant presumption. You fail to mention thought that you mean something totally different when you say “God”. We choose not to worship an “exalted man” but the One, REAL GOD. I noticed this last Sunday the Mormons around here were singing praises to Joe Smith in church. Do you really believe that he did more for the salvation of men than anyone else save Jesus only? I’m not so sure he even did as much for Mormons than Brigham Young. I certainly don’t think he did anything useful for mankind.

amgid:

I noticed that you had not given the source of your quote. Would you mind supplying the reference please?

2 Maccabees 7:28. It’s in the fullness of the Bible.

(continued)

 

[majick275]

(continued)

amgid:

I assure you that LDS also believe that “God alone made us, and in God alone will we find eternal joy.” Your deliberate misrepresentation of LDS belief doesn’t It don’t wash. It don’t fool nobody.

amgid

Neither will yours. You know LDS doctrine teaches that we have always existed as intelligences and that next we were “born” to our father in heaven as spirit children. Only our earthly bodies were “created”. Further, LDS teachings show that Adam and Jesus “organized”(not created) the earth. God just “directed” it. The LDS view of eternal joy involves becoming a God yourself. While Satan tried that line in the garden and fooled Eve with it…He still uses it today…apparently it stil works.

 

[donbjc]

Well, what a hornet’s nest I stirred. I guess I only see the good in what I have seen of the Mormons. They do not seem devious, but very bright, intelligent young men, who have much more knowledge in comparison to the average Catholic of that age, and much more dedication to God than any young people I have ever been acquainted with. Of course you are right, that some are much more prepared than others as in any venue of life. They still amaze me.
The teachings as I understand them simply say that God the Father, is the God of the Universe and the literal father of our spirits, His Son Jesus Christ is the God of this earth and is our elder brother, since He is the Son of God, and we are also the sons and daughters of God.
So there are two God’s of equal importance, but one being the father of the other. Makes a lot more sense than God being his own Father, as I have been taught that we as Catholics believe.
But, not to worry, I am a traditional Catholic and even if I see the logic of this concept I assure you I will never forsake the tradition of the Catholic Church.
I just recently started going to LDS Sunday School after Mass and have found it very interesting to learn what they really believe, and it just doesn’t coincide with what the people in this forum are saying the LDS believe. Not yet anyway, do you think they are teaching the classes deceitfully to trick me? They do know I am Catholic, but they never know when I will show up, so I do not think they can change the lessons to make it more palatable for me.
The reason they love the Prophet Joseph Smith so much is that he restored the Gospel to the Earth, and it was also his 200th birthday on the 23rd of December, that was why they had special celebrations honoring him. Kind of like we revere our saints and celebrate special days for them. Some people think we worship Mary and the Saints instead of God, because of our celebrations of their lives.
It is a good thing to understand each other and not criticize or try to make up things about each others religion. From the things I see here, the Catholic writers have no understanding at all of the LDS beliefs and are just twisting partial truths with outright lies to make it sound like they (LDS)do not believe in the same God. If you pray to God, he will let you know that He is One and the same God to everyone. The Catholic interpretation here of the Mormon God, does not jive with what they teach. Maybe in 6 years I have only heard the milk as you call it, but apparently you must go to anti-Mormon literature to get the meat.
Don

 

[donbjc]

Brad Haas:

Hi Don,
.

That aside, you have said you don’t find LDS beliefs to be weird and whatnot. That’s commendable, but I ask you to remember that they’re still not true. One issue that for me looms above all others is that I cannot find a purpose for existence if LDS beliefs are true. Ask yourself: if I am not made by anything else, and yet I cannot find fulfillment in myself, where am I to find it? In other words, if LDS beliefs are true and there is no supreme God who created everything that exists, but rather matter and people exist in a chain stretching infinitely back (as atheists claim about the material world), what can be the point of existence?

As Catholic Christians, we know whence we came, why we have value, and what our goal is - to all three, the answer is God. Scripture says, I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being. God alone made us, and in God alone will we find eternal joy.

P.S. Tell BJ hi, we miss her.

Thanks I will tell her, she got obsessed with the forum to the exclusion of her work and had to quit.
The point of existence from the LDS view is to come to earth, prove themselves in this testing ground, by following the commandments, and return to the presence of God in Heaven. In a nutshell. Mormons claim to know where they came from (born as spirit children to God the Father) I do not understand fully, as I do not understand Catholic beliefs fully, but I am trying to learn, more of my own believes as I discuss those beliefs with LDS.
Don

 

[Vanny]

The whole side of my father’s family are devout(mostly) Mormons.
Dad was a jack Mormon(lapsed Mormon) who has recently become born again evangelical (long story).
Mormons sincerely desire to serve God, (as donbjc has said)
have great church and family programs, which I greatly admire,
and most resent being referred to as a “non Christian cult” and greatly resent being shown how off the wall Joseph Smith or Brigham Young was. I know this for a fact.
Now personally, I think they are wrong on some key points- The nature of God, (trinity) and the nature of salvation( works-righteousness) I also do not believe their doctrine that the church went apostate after the last apostle and was restored after Joseph Smith, because we have Christ’s assurance that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.
Mainly what I do is pray and if they have sincere questions(which Dad had) I answer and affirm what I believe.
I have read some good resources which gave me answers when they tried to convert me- and I know my faith so I can always give an answer.
I mainly pray pray pray for my relatives.

 

[Brad_Haas]

Don, would you mind if I recommend a book to you on Catholic theology? You seem to have been taught some mistaken things about it.

About the purpose of existence, what’s the purpose of proving one’s self and then returning to God? Why is that our goal?

 

[Brad_Haas]

amgid:

Actually, Genesis doesn’t “places the garden of Eden among the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.” The word Tigris isn’t even mentioned in the Bible! It would be a good idea if you would give references for your scriptural quotes, so that people (as well as yourself) would know what you are talking about.

As majick mentioned, it’s in the book of Genesis. I realize the KJV doesn’t say “Tigris,” but it does say “Euphrates.” Did you search for that word too?

I have to disappoint you with that one. There is more “purpose for existence” in LDS theology than in any other.

Then perhaps you can tell me why it is that our goal is to be exalted and such? Or on a related note, why good is good?

That is not what we believe. We don’t believe that “we are not made by anything else”. We are made by God. That is what LDS doctrine teaches.

Are you sure prophets haven’t revealed that “matter” and “intelligence” are uncreated?

There is a “supreme God who created everything that exists;” but He did not create them out of nothing. The raw materials out which they were created have always existed. There is nothing in the Bible that says that God made everything out of nothing. On the contrary, all the indications are that both the early Christians as well as the ancient Jews believed in creation out of pre-existent matter. Belief in the pre-existence of matter does not detract from our total dependence on God as the supreme Creator, Provider, Savior and Redeemer of the universe. You must have a strange sense of logic if you think that it does.

Thank you. You say that all the indications are that both early Christians and Jews believed in creation of out pre-existent matter, yet the scripture verse I cited predates the Church. There’s also, for example, Romans 4:17 - as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations” – in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist..

We don’t believe that “matter and people existed in a chain stretching infinitely back”. We believe that God created all things from pre-existent matter, and “people” were created by God.

So it’s not correct to say that people are created by God, who is Himself a person, and was created by another god, who himself was created by another, etc.?

Who has put you so on the defensive that you now have to call yourself a “Catholic Christian”? I haven’t!

I’m not on the defensive. I’m a Catholic Christian. So is Don.

As for the rest, I assure you that we have a better idea than you do as to “whence we came, and why we have value . . .”, and the answer certainly is “God”.

You don’t believe you eternally exist as matter and intelligence? You don’t believe God came from anything else?

I assure you that LDS also believe that “God alone made us, and in God alone will we find eternal joy.” Your deliberate misrepresentation of LDS belief doesn’t It don’t wash. It don’t fool nobody.

God alone made us? So He didn’t use things that already existed? And our eternal joy will be in Him alone, so it’s not necessary (though certainly desired) that our loved ones will be with us? As long as we have Him, we’ll be perfectly happy?

 

[catholic-rcia]

I could not imagine material things existing before God, Where then did matter come from? From Nothing? God is much larger than that.

“I’m not on the defensive. I’m a Catholic Christian. So is Don.”

So am I

Did you know that the Church has always been called the Catholic Church, Christians being in the Catholic Church? It was the Catholic Church with Christians in it. Have you been taught what the word Christian means?

Amgid,
I asked you a question regarding the Historical context of the Bible. You said that the Historical context was not important. Do you remember the question? The Scripture given? I posted it three times with no response from you. Can you answer the question yet?

 

[Brad_Haas]

Did you know that the Church has always been called the Catholic Church, Christians being in the Catholic Church? It was the Catholic Church with Christians in it. Have you been taught what the word Christian means?

Did I know? Yeah. I don’t mean to say that “Catholic” and “Christian” are not equivalent. I just like the way it sounds, and it’s habit for me to phrase it that way on non-Catholic boards so as not to sound to “Romish” or whatever.

 

[amgid]

Brad Haas:

As majick mentioned, it’s in the book of Genesis. I realize the KJV doesn’t say “Tigris,” but it does say “Euphrates.” Did you search for that word too?

It does mention Euphrates, but the description that it gives of it is so vastly different from what we are able to recognize on world map today that it might as well be talking of another planet. This is what it says:

Genesis 2:

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Here we are presented with a picture of a river originating from a place it calls “Eden,” which is designed to pass trough the “Garden” which God had planted for Adam and Eve. After it has passed through the “Garden,” it splits up into four branches. The first one is called “Pison,” and it goes round “Havilah,” both of which are unheard of in secular history or geography. The second one is called “Gihon,” which is the craziest of them all, because it goes all the way to “Ethiopia” which is in the continent of Africa; and no such thing exists or even could exist on the map. The third one is called “Hiddekel,” which is equally unheard of in history or geography; and the fourth one is called Euphrates. Now if you can make any sense out of all of that, then I will agree with you that the Garden of Eden lies somewhere between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

I have to disappoint you with that one. There is more “purpose for existence” in LDS theology than in any other.

Then perhaps you can tell me why it is that our goal is to be exalted and such? Or on a related note, why good is good?

Your question does not make a lot of sense to me I am afraid. You have to clarify it a bit more for me so that I know what it is that you are asking, and how it relates to my original proposition.

That is not what we believe. We don’t believe that “we are not made by anything else”. We are made by God. That is what LDS doctrine teaches.

Are you sure prophets haven’t revealed that “matter” and “intelligence” are uncreated?

Yes, modern LDS scripture teaches that matter and intelligence were not created; but that is not the same as saying that you and I were not created. I am not an atom or a molecule. I am an organic being that has an independent character and personality; and so are you. It is how those atoms and molecules are put together that determines what I am and what you are; and how I am different from you. That is what God has made; not the basic elements out of which we were both created.

Thank you. You say that all the indications are that both early Christians and Jews believed in creation of out pre-existent matter, yet the scripture verse I cited predates the Church. There’s also, for example, Romans 4:17 - as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations” – in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist…

My KJV renders this verse differently; but I will take it as it is translated here. If I were an architect, and I designed and built an imposing new structure; before I created that structure it did not exist; but that does not mean that I made it out of nothing. If were a great painter or an artist, and I created a beautiful new work of art; before I created it, it did not exist. But that does not mean that I made it out of nothing. Just because the scripture says that God created things that before did not exist; that does not mean that He created it out of nothing.

(Continued in the next post…)

amgid

 

[amgid]

(Continued from the previous post…)

So it’s not correct to say that people are created by God, who is Himself a person, and was created by another god, who himself was created by another, etc.?

It is correct to say that “people are created by God, who is Himself a person;” but it is not correct to say that “he was created by another god, who himself was created by another, etc.” we don’t know where God came from. There is nothing in LDS scripture that gives us the answer to that question.

I’m not on the defensive. I’m a Catholic Christian.

Well that sounds kind of strange. I always thought that Catholics were Christians. I didn’t know that there were also Catholic Jews, Catholic Moslems, Catholic Atheists, Catholic Bahais, Catholic Hindus, and Catholic What’s its name too. It is a strange world we live in. Anything is possible nowadays I guess.

So is Don.

He is? Congratulations for Don! I am glad to hear it!

As for the rest, I assure you that we have a better idea than you do as to “whence we came, and why we have value . . .”, and the answer certainly is “God”.

You don’t believe you eternally exist as matter and intelligence?

I believe that matter and intelligence existed eternally; but that does not mean that I existed eternally. Those are two different things.

You don’t believe God came from anything else?

No I don’t. I have no idea where God came from; and neither does anyone else that I know of. God has not told us that.

God alone made us? So He didn’t use things that already existed?

God did use things that “already existed,” but that does not mean that He did not “make us”. See answer given above.

And our eternal joy will be in Him alone, so it’s not necessary (though certainly desired) that our loved ones will be with us? As long as we have Him, we’ll be perfectly happy?

So you reckon just because your “eternal joy will be in Him alone,” you should not become unhappy if one of your loved ones suffers a tragic end of some kind? If someone you love dies, don’t you become unhappy? If you become unhappy, does that mean that you do not have Joy in God? The scriptures tell us that there is “more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over 99 just me that have no need of repentance” (Luke 15:7). The scriptures even teach that God Himself rejoices over a sinner that repents, and is saved; and becomes unhappy over the one that does not:

Ezekiel 18:

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

---

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
So if God Himself becomes unhappy over the sinner that parishes in his sins, and rejoices over the one that does not, and likewise all His angels; should we not also mourn in heaven over those who are damned, and rejoice over those who will be saved–especially those of our own next of kin? Your logic seems a strange one to me.

amgid

 

[Brad_Haas]

In summary, you’ve told me:

• my logic is weird
• we can have no idea what is the origin of everything that exists
• we’ll need everyone we love with us eternally in order to be happy

I gotta disagree with those second two.