Respect vs. attraction in the marital embrace

[mommamaree]

Lust only lasts a short time… So enjoy it while it lasts…
After a short time things settle down, from vague intimacy to hallway sex at its worst ,
Most people I know loose intimacy, my first wife lost all interest after our third child,
After that went years without it,
If you find a way to reignite it let me know

We are not supposed to lust after our spouses at all. We can enjoy the sexual attraction that we have to our spouses, but lust is the desire to use the other person for your sexual pleasure. Not the same thing. Were you aware that lust =/= sexual attraction?

Some couples may lose intimacy in their marriage, but that is not the universal experience. Many marriages, including my own, discovered that their intimacy deepened over time. And that having children together is a part of that deepening intimacy. I am very sorry that your wife lost interest (do you mean her libido plummeted?). That had to feel like such a loss for you.

 

[mommamaree]

Have you tried praying with your wife about this? I know that for me and my husband, once we realized that we had some things to overcome in this aspect of our marriage, we found that praying together and separately, as well as going to confession, helped us to mentally “clean house” and drop a lot of emotional baggage. We are not perfect, so I do not want to make it seem like I have all the answers. But I can definitely say that prayer together helped, as did my inward prayers during the marital embrace, asking God to bless our physical loving and help us to enjoy holy sexual relations.

 

[mommamaree]

It sounds like you’re coming at it from the right perspective, brother.

Now I’m just going to go out on a limb. There seems to be something that prevents your sharing with each other, your intimacy, from really touching her. She is not free to receive your love. I would expect, then, that there is some time in her past where she was hurt, and decided not to let people in. This is likely to be very early in her childhood – and this is where the brokenness later in her life came from, the brokenness that manifested itself in lust.

Sorry to sound like a psychologist. But I think that she needs emotional and spiritual healing. You can help with this, but – in my own marriage – I’ve found that wives often need to discover these things for themselves. She needs a community of believers (or at least two or three friends!) who are willing to be really intimate with her, and show her love. Real sexual love is an expression that flourishes in the presence of safety. I don’t think she feels safe – not because she isn’t safe, but perhaps because she isn’t ready to trust you fully yet.

(Anything I said above might be off base. Take it for what it’s worth).

You have my prayers!

This is so accurate about why some women cannot be vulnerable with their husbands. I know that, for myself, true intimacy with my husband did not happen until after my conversion, when we started praying and when we started working on making me feel safe enough to surrender to the loving experience. Things have changed in such an amazing way, and only very recently, because I started working on taking down that wall, brick by brick, that I had built around my heart.

To the OP, consider Prodigal’s advice. It is very sound. This is something that can be overcome with your wife. I will pray for you tonight. I know it is painful for the husband who wants to love his wife but can’t convince her to let him love her.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This is so accurate about why some women cannot be vulnerable with their husbands. I know that, for myself, true intimacy with my husband did not happen until after my conversion, when we started praying and when we started working on making me feel safe enough to surrender to the loving experience. Things have changed in such an amazing way, and only very recently, because I started working on taking down that wall, brick by brick, that I had built around my heart.

You and my wife seem to have a lot in common, mammamaree! And if you’re anything like her, you must be one heck of a woman.

One great thing about marriage, from my perspective, is that – as intimacy between me and my wife has grown – we have gained such freedom in our relationship both in and out of the bedroom. People sometimes talk as if sex in marriage gets gradually duller, and surely this is true for some marriages. But if you share more and more of yourself with your spouse, your sex life is likely enough to get more and more interesting.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

Wait till you have been married for 25 years, then tell me… haha

 

[newbie25553]

You and my wife seem to have a lot in common, mammamaree! And if you’re anything like her, you must be one heck of a woman.

One great thing about marriage, from my perspective, is that – as intimacy between me and my wife has grown – we have gained such freedom in our relationship both in and out of the bedroom. People sometimes talk as if sex in marriage gets gradually duller, and surely this is true for some marriages. But if you share more and more of yourself with your spouse, your sex life is likely enough to get more and more interesting.

Your perspective is my goal, Prodigal Son!

 

[newbie25553]

This is so accurate about why some women cannot be vulnerable with their husbands. I know that, for myself, true intimacy with my husband did not happen until after my conversion, when we started praying and when we started working on making me feel safe enough to surrender to the loving experience. Things have changed in such an amazing way, and only very recently, because I started working on taking down that wall, brick by brick, that I had built around my heart.

To the OP, consider Prodigal’s advice. It is very sound. This is something that can be overcome with your wife. I will pray for you tonight. I know it is painful for the husband who wants to love his wife but can’t convince her to let him love her.

Thank you for this Wisdom and your prayers…

 

[fpt]

I am posting this because I am guessing I am not alone in an ongoing dilemma I have in my marriage.

It really boils down to:

My wife respects my views on the Church’s teaching about sexuality very much, but isn’t attracted to me for it (sexually).

I realize this is a false dilemma, and ideally we should have both (respect and attraction).

The conjugal carnal love and the conjugal sexual attraction are good. It is natural, normal and moral. Not an issue. In the marriage, the conjugal sexual attraction is a sign of conjugal sexual respect. You are totally right, it is a false dilemna.

We both brought baggage into our marriage, and it seems as if her previous sexual experiences were wrapped up in lustful “games”, and so true intimacy is a new experience for her.

**
The conjugal true intimacy in the context of the marital act implies some foreplay, some sexual preliminaries, some sexual talks, some sexual games of love ( see Song of Songs), some sexual positions. Could you define “lustful games”? What do you mean? You need to have the good acception?**

Unfortunately, it feels at times that when we go there, she completely shuts down, and getting anything started takes a really long time (if it happens at all). It feels very one sided as well - as she does not seem to be very emotionally open or available during the act.

For discerning:
Are you trying to be a conjugal lover for her? Do you act an angel? are you a puritan husband? Do you have religious inhibitions concerning the sexual foreplay? Are you scrupulous?

I want to be a good husband and a good man, and with many Graces from God have overcome some barriers to true intimacy myself (masturbation and pornography). But, I want our connection to be stronger in our marriage. I want the Church’s teaching on sexuality to help us flourish in that act - not to be a barrier in us connecting in that way.

**Focus on the unitive aspect of the marital act. **

I am looking for advice that anyone might have - both from men and women who have found themselves in this type of situation before. Are there women (or men) who found it hard to transition from a lust-filled sexual past to a love-filled marital union? What helped you in that transition?

 

[fpt]

I think this hits the nail on the head. We have had many of these types of conversations/experiences that (to me) seem should normally lead to this inflamed attraction (which I believe is healthy and good for marriage!). However, she seems “stuck”; like there is an elephant in the (bed?) room preventing her from reciprocating those feelings.

All of your insights/prayers are much appreciated. It is very good to know we are not alone in this.

Does she agree of working on? Visit some catholic doctors specialized in gynecology, in sexology for a medical check up. Visit some catholic psychologists and catholic ethicists specialized in sexology: perhaps, she needs medical treatments, psychological treatments, moral treaments, spiritual treatments. She needs of avoiding the guilt from the past, the erasing of her wrong lustful act coming from the past. Only the present time and the future are important.*

 

[fpt]

Thank you all for the helpful replies. To clarify, this has been an ongoing issue ever since I met my wife. Despite this, she helped bring me back to Our Lord, and marrying her (even with this full knowledge) was one of the best decisions I have ever made. We are soon celebrating our third anniversary.

We are blessed with a child on the way, so these issues are certainly amplified while she is experiencing all that goes with being pregnant for the first time. If it is my cross to remain celibate for the duration of the pregnancy, then so be it.

It is just very helpful to know I am not alone in this burden. I do think perhaps there is healing for her to do, so any suggestions of how a husband can best support his wife in this process would be helpful. I am so pleased to say that Christ helped me heal from a pornography and masturbation addiction, so I know anything is possible when we turn to him for help (especially in the Sacrament of Reconciliation).

Explain to me? In moral, the wife, even during the pregnancy, stays the conjugal lover. That means that, by principle, the refusal of the marital act cannot be justified in reason of the pregnancy. Per se, the pregnancy is not a fair reason for avoiding the marital act, the wife does not have to be dominated by her hormones (the absolute physiologism is wrong), she must work on that, she is a female human being not a female animal. The husband is her first devotion, the marital debt is a rule of marriage.* Per se, the pregnancy is not a disease.*

The wrong effects of the pregnancy can justify the refusal of the marital act, if and only if, the effects are present, real, objective, fair, serious. If they are existing, she has to try to cure this situation. Only, the dangerousity of the marital act for the baby or on the wife can justify the refusal of he marital act.

In my humble opinion,* some mental inhibitions about the sexuality are within your couple. Each one has to work on that, it is a moral obligation for each member of your couple in order to try to improve your sexual intimacy.*
*
Pray God, pray Holy Mary, pray your Patron saint, pray your keeper Angel for your conjugal sexual life and for your future conjugal sexual life: ask them to obtain the natural sexual intimacy of marriage for you, for her and for couple.*

 

[R1ch4rd]

Newbie,

You talk about “real marital intimacy”. I wonder what you mean by that. In my experience, intimacy is a matter of really knowing my wife, and my wife really knowing me. This means that we talk authentically about our feelings, our motivations, and – in gut-wrenching detail sometimes – our pasts.

Once this stuff is on the table – and stays on the table – we feel closer. (OK, sometimes we actually get very angry with each other. But then we feel closer, after a while). And when we feel closer, there are seasons when we become inflamed with attraction toward each other.

I’m not sure, either, what you are calling lust. Lust is the desire to use another person for your own pleasure, without respect for their dignity as a person. Lust is NOT wild abandon. Wild abandon and loud voices are proper to the bedroom for some of us. If your wife is at all like my wife, she wants you to care more about being a passionate man in the bedroom, rather than to care about doing everything the “right” way. Of course, I’m not saying to sin. But I think God wants a man and a woman to be “unleashed”, as it were, when they encounter one another.

There may be need for more personal freedom, on one or both of your parts, before this can happen. But this can happen.

God bless your marriage!

Newbie,
There are a couple subjects that Prodical_Son and I disagree on but he hit the nail on the head here. I believe if you love your wife as God intended, it’s almost impossible to “lust” for her. PS is also right about “marital intimacy”. A deep look in each other’s eye’s can be more intimate then the wildest evening in the bedroom…just my :twocents:

 

[mommamaree]

Newbie,
There are a couple subjects that Prodical_Son and I disagree on but he hit the nail on the head here. I believe if you love your wife as God intended, it’s almost impossible to “lust” for her. PS is also right about “marital intimacy”. A deep look in each other’s eye’s can be more intimate then the wildest evening in the bedroom…just my :twocents:

Bolded emphasis mine
I absolutely agree with this. For years and years, I had to have the cover of darkness and I couldn’t make eye contact with my husband during lovemaking. I couldn’t even call it “lovemaking”. I had been too injured by the effects of being lusted after. The moment when I first made spontaneous eye contact with a loving smile and a feeling of happiness (instead of shame and embarrassment) was a tremendous moment for me. Only the healing that Jesus offers in the sacraments (all the sacraments I received since conversion, not just confession and the Eucharist) could have caused that change for me. Pleasure is increased, not by wild theatrical swinging from the chandeleir acts, but rather by the increase in love and intimacy that God gives to those bonded in a sacramental marriage.

 

[newbie25553]

Bolded emphasis mine
I absolutely agree with this. For years and years, I had to have the cover of darkness and I couldn’t make eye contact with my husband during lovemaking. I couldn’t even call it “lovemaking”. I had been too injured by the effects of being lusted after. The moment when I first made spontaneous eye contact with a loving smile and a feeling of happiness (instead of shame and embarrassment) was a tremendous moment for me. Only the healing that Jesus offers in the sacraments (all the sacraments I received since conversion, not just confession and the Eucharist) could have caused that change for me. Pleasure is increased, not by wild theatrical swinging from the chandeleir acts, but rather by the increase in love and intimacy that God gives to those bonded in a sacramental marriage.

What you describe is exactly what I desire for my wife.

I suppose I should clarify on the “lustful games” comment from earlier as many people have had questions as to what I was referring to. Generally, just fornication, lust (using others purely for pleasure), etc.

I do so want her to be able to see God’s mercy and forgiveness. Shame is the work of the Devil, and it is stopping us from being as close as we could be.

 

[JRKH]

What you describe is exactly what I desire for my wife.

I suppose I should clarify on the “lustful games” comment from earlier as many people have had questions as to what I was referring to. Generally, just fornication, lust (using others purely for pleasure), etc.

I do so want her to be able to see God’s mercy and forgiveness. Shame is the work of the Devil, and it is stopping us from being as close as we could be.

Sounds like she has some things to work through.

I don’t know if I can explain this very well or not…but I’ll try…

In a good marriage, each partner wishes to please the other. In order to do that each partner makes known what would please them and what each might find dis-pleasing. With this information neither partner would ask the other do do something that they find dis-pleasing while at the same time each partner is willing to give of themselves to the fullest extent possible in order to give their partner joy and to show their love.

Now - If your wife is concerned that her desires are somehow “using you” and therefore lustful (and consequently she holds back), then I would suggest trying to communicate to her that such is not the case.
Make sure she knows that it is your most fervent desire to give to her that which will give her pleasure and in this giving you find your pleasure as well. Therefore, she is not simply “using you”…or acting in an improper or lustful manner. Rather she is enabling you to give to her that which you desire she have - comfort, joy, passion, “wild abandon”…Whatever the two of you find suitable (within certain parameters of course).

The problem that can sometimes occur is that a person feels guilty (lustful) for wanting and accepting pleasure…What they don’t realize is that their partner WANTS them to have that pleasure. Love means to give…but if another won’t receive what is freely offered…it thwarts the giving.

Don’t know if I explained this well…but the bottom line is that there is nothing wrong or sinful in enjoying the passions of marriage, in letting your partner know what gives you pleasure so that they can (if possible) accommodate…This is what makes the activity intimate.

Peace
James

 

[R1ch4rd]

What you describe is exactly what I desire for my wife.

I suppose I should clarify on the “lustful games” comment from earlier as many people have had questions as to what I was referring to. Generally, just fornication, lust (using others purely for pleasure), etc.

I do so want her to be able to see God’s mercy and forgiveness. Shame is the work of the Devil, and it is stopping us from being as close as we could be.

Have either of you read “Holy Sex!: A Catholic Guide to Toe Curling, Mind Blowing Infallible Loving” by Gregory Popcak? Perhaps you guys have the wrong impression of what the Church teaches regarding Marriage. “Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West is also good.

Don’t know if I explained this well…but the bottom line is that there is nothing wrong or sinful in enjoying the passions of marriage, in letting your partner know what gives you pleasure so that they can (if possible) accommodate…This is what makes the activity intimate.

You did a nice job!

 

[mommamaree]

(snip)
Now - If your wife is concerned that her desires are somehow “using you” and therefore lustful (and consequently she holds back), then I would suggest trying to communicate to her that such is not the case.
Make sure she knows that it is your most fervent desire to give to her that which will give her pleasure and in this giving you find your pleasure as well. Therefore, she is not simply “using you”…or acting in an improper or lustful manner. Rather she is enabling you to give to her that which you desire she have - comfort, joy, passion, “wild abandon”…Whatever the two of you find suitable (within certain parameters of course).

**The problem that can sometimes occur is that a person feels guilty (lustful) for wanting and accepting pleasure…What they don’t realize is that their partner WANTS them to have that pleasure. Love means to give…but if another won’t receive what is freely offered…it thwarts the giving. **

Don’t know if I explained this well…but the bottom line is that there is nothing wrong or sinful in enjoying the passions of marriage, in letting your partner know what gives you pleasure so that they can (if possible) accommodate…This is what makes the activity intimate.

Peace
James

bolded emphasis mine

Yes. A hundred times yes. I have been through so much pain with respect to this that at times I wanted to give up and shut down. And almost all of it wasn’t any fault of mine. I had just been hurt so badly and couldn’t understand how I was supposed to behave in the marital bed. I would never ever wish this sort of pain on anyone, even my worst enemy. I will readily admit that it has only been through relying upon the advice and encouragement of people here at CAF that I have made any progress in my understanding. God provided the healing through His sacraments, but He also gave me this forum to help me grow in understanding. I hope that the OP’s wife can similarly find healing and understanding.

To the OP and his wife, you may PM me if you want. I know how personal and painful this can be. God bless you.

 

[JRKH]

bolded emphasis mine

Yes. A hundred times yes. I have been through so much pain with respect to this that at times I wanted to give up and shut down. And almost all of it wasn’t any fault of mine. I had just been hurt so badly and couldn’t understand how I was supposed to behave in the marital bed. I would never ever wish this sort of pain on anyone, even my worst enemy. I will readily admit that it has only been through relying upon the advice and encouragement of people here at CAF that I have made any progress in my understanding. God provided the healing through His sacraments, but He also gave me this forum to help me grow in understanding. I hope that the OP’s wife can similarly find healing and understanding.

To the OP and his wife, you may PM me if you want. I know how personal and painful this can be. God bless you.

Glad you found my post useful. Yes - healing is what is often needed…and loving patience is salve that allows that healing to occur.

In our case, my wife had married young, spent ten years and a physically and emotionally abusive relationship and then 25 years single - but with intermittent (not good) relationships.
When we married it took a while to really understand one another - to grow to really know the other, to sort what real and right for both of us from what was not. Then we could be truly and completely intimate in a way that never grew old, or unexciting even though it never really varied all that much…Yet it provided for lovely surprises and variations that grew out of the interactions of our desires to give and willingness - indeed joy - to receive with the other.

Peace
James