Restitution and Evil

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harshcshah

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If one were to cause damage to the property of an organisation or person that promotes evil and one were to confess this sin, would one be required to make restitution to the organisation or person itself/himself (and thereby risk that money being used in evil) or would it suffice to give money to a charitable cause or the Church in place of that organisation or person?
 
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TheIttyBitty said:
If you have the means and the individual or organization is still accessible, then you should pay restitution to the organization or individual that owns the property.
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Would that be advisable if the organisation was actively promoting evil and ideas directly contrary to the Church’s moral teaching? Would it not be more advisable to give that money to an organisation that is in accord with the Church’s teaching?
 
First of all, confession doesn’t require you to make “restitution” in monetary form, or any other form where you would have to reveal outside the confessional your sin.

Second, if the organization or person were really promoting evil (like I’m assuming you mean you broke the window at the PP clinic), then you don’t want to be helping them promote evil by giving them money. If you wished to make a monetary restitution (which I note again is not going to be required for absolution) then you could give the cost of the window to an organization that works for good, or use it to have Masses said for those who work in the evil organization and/or to counteract their evil deeds.
 
TheIttyBitty said:
If you purposely did damage, you pay regardless of the organization.
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Catholic source backing this up, please. And not just your own interpretation of Scripture.

If an overzealous Catholic burned down the PP clinic and was not caught, there is no way that any priest would tell him he has to contribute towards the building of a new PP clinic. No way, none.
 
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You posted a huge section of the Catechism.
Again, I don’t see anything in there that says we are required to make restitution to an evil cause - basically cooperating in the evil.

Do you have a specific subsection to cite? Usually when answering it is best to point to the specific section rather than the whole page, unless it’s a very general question.

The only sections I found on that page regarding “restitution” were basically if you stole goods then you need to return them to their owner. Obviously if you destroyed property, you don’t have stolen goods to return to the owner. So we’re talking about money or an in-kind donation of goods or services. Obviously if an organization is clearly promoting evil, we do not give them money or donations to further commit evil. Our restitution would have to be promoting good. As I said, that can be done by donating to a charity or by having Masses said, or even perhaps by prayer if the person doesn’t have money to pay for a whole new building.
 
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TheIttyBitty said:
if I burn down an abortion clinic, do I have to pay them back or is it a sin at all? Can I pay restitution to the Catholic Church or a suitable charity instead of the abortion clinic?
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The answer is:
  1. Yes, it’s a sin. It’s not sinful to oppose abortion, but it is a sin to resort to violent and destructive means that endangered the lives of others (at the very least, the firefighters and any neighboring inhabitants).
  2. Regarding whether you have to pay them back, it’s not necessary for absolution of your sin. You might think about how you would make reparation after you’re absolved. This is a prayerful choice for you to make. You can discuss it with the priest in confession (because it will be under seal there, whereas if you discuss it with him outside confession it’s not under seal) but he’s not going to tell you that you have to make restitution in order to be absolved, or even as your penance. I also doubt most if not all priests would support the idea of a Catholic donating money or other goods or services to a clearly evil organization such as PP clinic, Satanic church, etc.
  3. Regarding whether you can pay restitution to the Catholic Church or a suitable charity instead of the clinic, the answer is yes, you can donate to the Church or a suitable charity, perhaps one that helps struggling young mothers and pregnant women. You can also think about non-monetary ways of making restitution, especially if you don’t have the money to pay. Even if you make a salary, you might need that to support your own family; God does not expect you to go into debt or deprive your family. You can pray or do charity works instead to make restitution.
 
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Did you read my #1 above? No, we can’t. It’s a grave sin. We could go to Hell.

However, once the clinic has burned down, we are not required by the Church to spend our own money to resurrect it.

We don’t refrain from committing grave sins on the basis of whether or not we have to spend our money to correct the results of our sin. We refrain from committing them because they destroy our relationship with God.
 
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Aside from the fact that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not an official catechism of the Church, once again you’ve posted a very long, dense page, without citing a specific section that supports your contention.

You seem to think that if we engage in a destruction of property of a clearly evil enterprise, we’re somehow bound morally to make restitution to the evil enterprise and thus support the ongoing evil acts of the enterprise.

There is no support for this in Catholic teaching; it would require us to commit two wrongs, the first one being burning down the abortion clinic, the second one being facilitating abortion by giving them money to rebuild the clinic.

We make our restitution in a manner that does not facilitate the ongoing evil. Donating to another charity is acceptable. Offering prayers or good works in lieu of money is also acceptable. In this way, we avoid committing the second wrong.
 
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TheIttyBitty said:
That said, I do think that if you legally are caught, and in a legal loophole due to severity, you owe what you owe. There’s no priest to absolve legal debts, and that goes back to my first reply on this topic.
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Legally, the civil justice system could order you to make restitution or might even give you a prison sentence if you stole or destroyed a large amount. You would then have to comply with the civil law or else face further legal action/ penalties.

However, the OP’s question relates specifically to the confession of sins (stated in his first post), not to the civil justice system.

The civil justice system is also not operating in all cases according to Catholic morals, as shown by the fact that abortion clinics are allowed to operate in the first place.
 
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Just to clarify, I was posing the question from a hypothetical standpoint (hence the use of “one” and not “I”). However, the situation does relate to me in some sense but I am yet to be baptised; I would be uncomfortable in discussing precise details of the action and against what it was done.
I would like to thank those who have contributed thus far for their contributions.
 
If you are planning to be baptized in the Catholic Church, then presumably at some point you will make your first confession, and this might be an area to discuss with your priest in that confession, since like I said the details of the action would all be under seal if you talk about it in confession, and the priest would be bound to keep them all secret. (If you discussed with a priest outside confession then there is no seal.)

But to sum up generally, the Church understands that there are many circumstances where a physical restitution for a taking might not be possible, including
  • it was a long time ago and whoever you took from can’t be located, has died, went out of business etc.
  • restitution would force you to reveal your sin to someone else outside of confession, which the Church never requires you to do (In some cases they might encourage it - but not require it)
  • the person or organization you took from was actively engaged in evil
  • you don’t have the money or ability to make a full restitution
  • you do have money but you have other responsibilities such as your family and you would have to deny them in order to pay the restitution
In all these cases, the priest is likely to suggest that you
  • donate money to a charity or have Masses said
  • or do something else other than pay back money or goods, such as pray for the person, or pray for a specific intention related to the situation (for example, pray for an end to the evil propagated by the organization), or do some good deed, etc.
Bottom line is you won’t be compelled to make a monetary restitution, and you especially won’t be compelled to commit an additional sin by giving money to an evil institution.
 
harshcshah said:
would one be required to make restitution to the organisation or person itself / himself (and thereby risk that money being used in evil)
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I’m going to stay away from the question of penance, and just focus on the question of “participation in evil.” At best, that would be remote material cooperation, which does not mean that your “participation with evil” is culpably sinful.
Tis_Bearself said:
If an overzealous Catholic burned down the PP clinic and was not caught, there is no way that any priest would tell him he has to contribute towards the building of a new PP clinic. No way, none.
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Your examples means that the overzealous person was contrite and sought absolution. Is that what you’re presuming?

And besides, “contribute towards the building of a new clinic” isn’t what the original question asked.
Tis_Bearself said:
If you are planning to be baptized in the Catholic Church, then presumably at some point you will make your first confession
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Umm… no. If he were already baptized and just planning to enter the Church, then there’d be an opportunity for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Since he’s planning on being baptized, then that baptism wipes away all personal sin committed to date.
 
Gorgias said:
Umm… no. If he were already baptized and just planning to enter the Church, then there’d be an opportunity for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Since he’s planning on being baptized, then that baptism wipes away all personal sin committed to date.
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Correct, but at some point after that he is going to be going to Confession. You don’t just get baptized and then never confess. Unless he’s going to abandon the practice of Catholicism after he receives the Sacraments of Initiation, he will at some point make a first confession. At that time, he will not have to confess the past sin (it will be gone already, due to his baptism) but it will give him an opportunity to privately discuss the restitution issue with a priest in a manner where he is sure it won’t become known to others.

If he doesn’t care if it becomes known to others, he can discuss with priest any time, but it sounded like he wanted to keep details private.
Your examples means that the overzealous person was contrite and sought absolution. Is that what you’re presuming?
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Yes, I’m presuming that. I’m also presuming it’s not public knowledge that he is the perp, and that he hasn’t been ordered by a court in a legal action to pay restitution.
If he had a legal duty to pay restitution based on a judgment/ settlement/ court order, then a priest might tell him he needs to abide by the civil laws and pay it, as distasteful as that may be. (It’s also possible a priest might support him resisting paying it if it were going to PP, but we’ll assume the priest is not the Fr. Pavone type who would be encouraging civil disobedience in this manner.)

If the perp went to confession, confessed his sin of arson, was sorry and was absolved, the priest would not be telling him to pay restitution to the clinic, or to pay restitution at all if it would somehow reveal his sin to someone outside the confessional. Likewise, if the perp’s sin is removed as a result of first baptism, he is still not required to reveal his past sins.
And besides, “contribute towards the building of a new clinic” isn’t what the original question asked.
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The discussion is due to TheIttyBitty claiming one has to make/ pay restitution to the evil entity, to cooperate in evil, rather than making restitution to a charity or the Church or in some other way. It doesn’t matter if the perp is building a whole new clinic or just giving them 25 dollars, the money will support evil.
He could make restitution in a non-evil manner by praying for the clinic staff to be converted and for an end to abortion.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
He could make restitution in a non-evil manner by praying for the clinic staff to be converted and for an end to abortion.
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No. That would be penance, but not restitution.
Tis_Bearself said:
It doesn’t matter if the perp is building a whole new clinic or just giving them 25 dollars, the money will support evil.
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But not in a way that’s a sinful cooperation with evil, which is what it would seem has been being asked.
Tis_Bearself said:
or to pay restitution at all if it would somehow reveal his sin to someone outside the confessional.
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Right. That’s never allowable.
Tis_Bearself said:
it will give him an opportunity to privately discuss the restitution issue with a priest in a manner where he is sure it won’t become known to others.
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I’m of the opinion that this is something that should be part of a meeting with a priest, but outside the confessional.
 
Gorgias said:
I’m of the opinion that this is something that should be part of a meeting with a priest, but outside the confessional.
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I tend to share your opinion, because I think people shouldn’t need to spend more than 5 minutes in confession unless they’re confessing 20+ years of sins in which case I would give them 10 minutes.
But we don’t know how important privacy is to the person.

I’m the kind of person who doesn’t think there’s any real privacy in life anyway, and if someone wants to know something bad enough, they’ll find out. So, while I’d rather keep various stuff to myself, if it somehow leaked I’d own it. But in other people’s cases they may worry about things like legal or marital consequences.

We differ on the other two questions, which is fine. Like I said it’s best left between a person and his priest.
 
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Can you elaborate on what’s never allowable? The entire blurb copy pasted for each response.
 
TheIttyBitty said:
Can you elaborate on what’s never allowable? The entire blurb copy pasted for each response.
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What’s not allowable is for a priest to place a requirement on a penitent – either as a penance or as a condition for absolution – which would require him to reveal his sin to someone outside the confessional.
 
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