Restoration

[Lief_Erikson]

thanks, Lieff…

Someone once told me that Jesus triumphed because His obedience was greater than the enemy…
Yes, an act is greater than a non-act.
“Is this the fast I choose? Is it not to undo the bands of wickedness, and to put away the pointing of the finger?” Is 58

Indeed. So consider that an option, as you ponder and pray about what to do.

I will check out the post about Marianism; however, since the instructions left by the Apostles never made a big deal about it - from what I have read, I am not inclined to, either…

Well . . . You may think they didn’t leave instructions making a big deal out of it, but that’s because you don’t take the apostles’ appointed successors at their word when those men say the teachings they pass on all came from the apostles. The successors to the apostles in the Early Church did make a big deal about Mary, and they claimed to be passing on the teachings of the apostles about her.

Also, you think they didn’t leave many instructions about Mary because you don’t interpret the Marian passages in the Bible the way we do, and also you don’t acknowledge many huge parts of Old Testament typology predicting Mary’s incredible role in the Church. There is a lot in the Bible (in both Testaments) stating openly, implying, or prophetically predicting Mary’s role to be that which the Catholic Church declares it to be, as it happens. Modern Protestants just aren’t used to thinking of those interpretations when they see those passages, because they grew up on traditions of Bible interpretation earlier generations of Protestants developed over the course of the centuries, which differ from the Catholic.

There is a lot of tradition in Protestantism. All interpretation of Scripture is tradition, not Scripture itself. Differences between these traditions are the reasons why there are thousands of denominations in Protestantism, not to mention the large numbers of non-denominationals, with their own private sets of traditions of Scripture interpretations. So you have loads of tradition, just as we do, but an important difference is that our tradition comes from the early Fathers of the Church, the successors, intimate friends and disciples of the original apostles, whereas your tradition begins around the 16th century, one and a half thousand years after Christ.

Back to Mary .

The Bible describes explicitly, implicitly or by prophetic typology all the following about Mary: Her Queenship (Revelation 11:19-12:6, Luke 1:43, Jeremiah 13:18, 1 Kings 2:17-21, 2 Kings 10:13, 12:1, 14:2, 15.33, 22:1), her identity as Mother of God (Luke 1:43), her identity as Mother of the Church (John 19:26-27), her role as Advocate for humanity (1 Kings 2:17-21, John 2:3-5), her role in the redemption of humanity through undoing the disobedience of Eve by obedience, the faithlessness of Eve by faith (Compare Luke 1:26-38 with Genesis 3:1-6, and see 1 Timothy 2:15), her Immaculate Conception (Luke 1:28, Exodus 24:11), and her Assumption into Heaven (Psalm 132:8).

 

[dan1el]

The Ark of His strength is Jesus; not Mary…

The Ark was made of wood covered with gold. Wood, in the Bible, speaks of humanity, and gold speaks of faith that has been tried by fire Rev 3:18 + James 1:2-4 + 1 Pet 12-13

Therefore, when Rev 11:19 speaks of the Ark of God being seen in Heaven, it is actually speaking of Jesus being seen, which
is in correlation to Matt 24:31 and John 6:44.

And again, I agree with you about traditions, and I see how I have certain paradigms which are fixed in me, and yet how God still accepts me, just as He does all others who believe in Jesus. About these, I am willing to be changed, and have asked God to break my paradigms and shift them into correct alignment with His own thoughts/faith.

I sense that your spirit is right, and that is what I desire to have, in all of this figuring out what truth is, because if I just keep the right spirit, God will lead me into all truth, which truth is the form of love… thank you, brother, and God Bless…

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The Ark of His strength is Jesus; not Mary…

The Ark was made of wood covered with gold. Wood, in the Bible, speaks of humanity, and gold speaks of faith that has been tried by fire Rev 3:18 + James 1:2-4 + 1 Pet 12-13

Gold was also used to refer to purity very often. In fact, the Hebrew word for “pure” is usually used in relation to gold, in the Old Testament.
studylight.org:

1. Flawless The primary Hebrew root word for pure (thr) often refers to pure or flawless gold: (1 Kings 10:21; Job 28:19; Psalms 12:6). Thr and other Hebrew words for “pure” are used to describe other objects such as salt (Exodus 30:35), oil (Exodus 27:20), and incense (Exodus 37:29). Thus, a basic Old Testament meaning is that of “refined, purified, without flaw, perfect, clean.” Note Lamentations 4:7.
2. Ritual Purity. To be ritually pure means to be free of some flaw or uncleanness which would bar one from contact with holy objects or places, especially from contact with the holy presence of God in worship. God is the ideal of purity, and those who are to come in contact with God’s presence are also to be pure. Habakkuk 1:13 indicates that God’s eyes are too pure to look upon evil.

The altar for sacrifice was purified so that it would be prepared for worship (Leviticus 8:15; Ezekiel 43:26). The objects of gold used in the tabernacle and Temple were also pure in this sense; this would be true of the incense in Exodus 37:29. The Levites were to purify themselves for service in the tabernacle (Numbers 8:21). When that which was unclean or impure came into contact with that which was holy, danger resulted and could even lead to death. This is probably the background for the preparation made for the theophany, a manifestation of God’s presence, in Exodus 19:1 and for the death of Uzzah when he was unprepared (not purified) to touch the ark of the covenant, a most holy object (2 Samuel 6:1-11). Malachi 1:11-12 contrasts the pure offerings of Gentiles with blemished offerings given by God’s people; such a state necessitated purification (Malachi 3:3-4).

Gold is absolutely about purity in the Bible. Certainly not only faith tried by fire, though this meaning too is about purity- the fire purifies the elements so that they become completely gold.

I am fine with your connection of wood with humanity.

Therefore, when Rev 11:19 speaks of the Ark of God being seen in Heaven, it is actually speaking of Jesus being seen, which
is in correlation to Matt 24:31 and John 6:44.

How does that follow? We’ve established, I think, that the Ark’s wood and gold refer to purity and humanity being beautifully united. We haven’t established that it’s Jesus.

Matthew 24 describes Jesus in the clouds of Heaven, and John 6 describes Him raising others up to join Him in Heaven. You haven’t established a clear link between Revelation 11 and these references, though. In fact, Revelation 11 and 12 are very different- Revelation 11 does not mention any saints rising from the dead except the two witnesses, and Revelation 12 refers to Jesus rising into Heaven not before verse 5. It, also, never explicitly refers the the rise of the saints into Heaven, and in fact verse 17 makes it clear that they haven’t yet been raised. So there is no reason to connect these passages except an assumption that the Ark is meant to be Jesus.

However, the context of these passages itself goes against that interpretation.

Revelation 11:19 describes the Ark being unveiled the verse before it describes the “woman clothed with the sun,” appearing in Heaven. Revelation 11:19 moves seamlessly into Revelation 12:1.
Revelation 11:19-12:5:

Then God’s Temple in Heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth. Then another portent appeared in heaven: a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne

The Temple is opened, the ark is revealed, and the woman instantly appears in heaven. Her appearance is directly connected with the exposing of the ark of the covenant.

In addition to this, Rev. 12:17 refers to the woman’s children as those who “keep the commandments of God.” The Commandments, of course, were kept inside the ark. So those who keep the commandments of God are children of the ark- children of this woman of Revelation 12.

And in addition to this, take note of Rev. 12’s description of the dragon’s battle against the woman. That is in verses 13-16 describe a great battle between them, the serpent attacking and the woman receiving as her defense wings, earth and wilderness. This parallels one of the great Marian prophecies, Genesis 3:15.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed; he will crush your head, and you will strike at his heel.”

The seed of the woman, in this passage, is Jesus, who crushes the head of the serpent. That would make the woman herself from whom the seed comes Mary. Especially seeing as this is the only reference in the Bible to a seed coming from a woman. In every other case, in the Bible, we see the seed of a man referred to. But this was a Virgin Birth, so the seed that crushed the head of the serpent is described as of a woman.

This passage explicitly describes fierce enmity between this same woman and the serpent, an enmity described in much greater detail by the parallel passages in Revelation 12 and 11, which describe the battle between the woman and the dragon (again, described in serpentine form, just as in Genesis).

These two chapters connect Ark of the Covenant, New Eve and the “woman clothed with the sun,” all as the one who “gave birth to a son . . . who is to rule all the nations.”

Here are some more connections between the ark of the covenant and Mary:
Catholic Answers:

The third and most compelling type of Mary’s Immaculate Conception is the ark of the covenant. In Exodus 20 Moses is given the Ten Commandments. In chapters 25 through 30 the Lord gives Moses a detailed plan for the construction of the ark, the special container which would carry the Commandments. The surprising thing is that five chapters later, staring in chapter 35 and continuing to chapter 40, Moses repeats word for word each of the details of the ark’s construction.

Why? It was a way of emphasizing how crucial it was for the Lord’s exact specifications to be met (Ex. 25:9, 39:42-43). God wanted the ark to be as perfect and unblemished as humanly possible so it would be worthy of the honor of bearing the written Word of God. How much more so would God want Mary, the ark of the new covenant, to be perfect and unblemished since she would carry within her womb the Word of God in flesh.

When the ark was completed, “the cloud covered the meeting tent and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling. Moses could not enter the meeting tent, because the cloud settled down upon it and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling” (Ex. 40:34-38). Compare this with the words of Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:35.

There’s another striking foreshadowing of Mary as the new ark of the covenant in 2 Samuel 6. The Israelites had lost the ark in a battle with their enemies, the Philistines, and had recently recaptured it. King David sees the ark being brought to him and, in his joy and awe, says “Who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?” (1 Sam. 6:9).

Compare this with Elizabeth’s nearly identical words in Luke 1:43. Just as David leapt for joy before the ark when it was brought into Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:14-16), so John the Baptist leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary, the ark of the new covenant, came into her presence (Luke 1:44). John’s leap was for precisely the same reason as David’s–not primarily because of the ark itself, but because of what the ark contained, the Word of God.

Another parallel may be found in 2 Samuel 6:10-12 where we read that David ordered the ark diverted up into the hill country of Judea to remain with the household of Obededom for three months. This parallels the three-month visit Mary made at Elizabeth’s home in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39-45, 65). While the ark remained with Obededom it “blessed his household.” This is an Old Testament way of saying the fertility of women, crops, and livestock was increased. Notice that God worked this same miracle for Elizabeth and Zachariah in their old age as a prelude to the greater miracle he would work in Mary.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

And again, I agree with you about traditions, and I see how I have certain paradigms which are fixed in me, and yet how God still accepts me, just as He does all others who believe in Jesus. About these, I am willing to be changed, and have asked God to break my paradigms and shift them into correct alignment with His own thoughts/faith.

That is an excellent prayer. I pray it too, all the time.

I sense that your spirit is right, and that is what I desire to have, in all of this figuring out what truth is, because if I just keep the right spirit, God will lead me into all truth, which truth is the form of love… thank you, brother, and God Bless…

God bless you too .

Thank-you for your kind words.

 

[dan1el]

The conx between the three is this:
The Two Witnesses are a type of the Church.
The Two Witnesses actually speaks of Moses and Elijah, who in turn are symbols of the Law and the Prophets, which is what the saints have in their hearts as they fulfill the two greatest commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.

Rev 11 says the Two Witnesses are the two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of all the earth, which is actually a Scripture you see in Zechariah 4, speaking of the Law and the Prophets, and God says, “Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit,” meaning, the laws are not to be followed legalistically, for the entire fulfillment of the law is the love (God is Spirit; God is love).
This is fulfilled in Mark 9:4 when Jesus, “the Lord of all the Earth”, is praying on the mountain, and the two anointed ones, Moses and Elijah, appear to Him, speaking with Him.
These same two are the ones Rev 11 is speaking of; however, symbolically:
“On these two commandments [love God and neighbor as self] hang all the [Moses] Law and the [Elijah]Prophets.” Matthew 22:40

The believers are Arks, themselves, of the Law. “I will write my laws on their hearts…”

The transition from Rev 11 to 12 is not 100% chronological, since, as you know, in order for Jesus to return to the earth and catch up His elect in Rev 11, He could not be born in Rev 12; whereas in Rev 12, you see Jesus born.
In Rev 11, it mentions a time when the beast will arise out of the abyss; this time is not explained/fulfilled until Rev 13.
You have to read very carefullly.
Remember that believers are saved “from the wrath to come”; it is only in the 7th trumpet that the wrath of God is revealed, so that directly after the believers are caught up by the LORD in Rev 11:11,12, you see the 7th trumpet sound, as it was also prophesied in Rev 10.
The Ark is Jesus, humanity overlaid with gold (faith, for without faith there is no purity – “he who has this hope in himself purified himself even as He is pure” 1 J 3:3).

If you read the Book of Enoch, you will also see this very same event, wherein the people of the Earth see “how He sits on His throne”, which relates to Matt 24:31.

What I was saying was that Matthew 24:31 is the last day of John 6:44, wherein we are caught up to be with Him, and this is Rev 11:11,12, which is the final moment before the 7th Trumpet is blown, the trumpet revealing the wrath of God, from which we are saved.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The conx between the three is this:
The Two Witnesses are a type of the Church.

Or they are the Church. It says in verse 4, “These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.” Lampstands refer to churches (Rev. 2:5), and witnesses representative of the Church went forth in pairs in the Book of Acts.

The Two Witnesses actually speaks of Moses and Elijah,

Since when? I mean, where in Scripture do we find this?

who in turn are symbols of the Law and the Prophets,

I agree that Moses and Elijah may very well symbolize the Law and the Prophets. I don’t see why you think they are the two witnesses, though .

which is what the saints have in their hearts as they fulfill the two greatest commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.

Agreed.

Rev 11 says the Two Witnesses are the two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of all the earth, which is actually a Scripture you see in Zechariah 4, speaking of the Law and the Prophets,

Hold it . . . Zechariah 4 doesn’t say the anointed ones represent the Law and the Prophets any more than Rev. 11 says they are Moses and Elijah.

I agree that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 appear to parallel Zechariah 4, but there’s no reason to think the anointed ones of Zechariah 4 are not, like the Two Witnesses, the Church (or in this case the forerunners of the Church who stand still to be perfected by their unity with the New Covenant Kingdom of God).

and God says, “Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit,” meaning, the laws are not to be followed legalistically, for the entire fulfillment of the law is the love (God is Spirit; God is love).

The word “Law” does not even appear anywhere in this chapter. Nor even in the chapter that comes before! Though the Lord does, in Chapter 3, mention that Joshua needs to keep “my requirements,” which may refer to the Law, that’s as close as we get to an explicit reference to the Law anywhere near the passages we’re discussing. And that reference takes place in a different meeting and conversation altogether (4:1). The names of Moses and Elijah appear nowhere here, either. So I don’t see where the connections you’re drawing are coming from.

This is fulfilled in Mark 9:4 when Jesus, “the Lord of all the Earth”, is praying on the mountain, and the two anointed ones, Moses and Elijah, appear to Him, speaking with Him.

Moses and Elijah are two of God’s anointed ones. On the other hand, Barnabas and Paul went out together as pairs of witnesses too in Acts. The Early Church sent their evangelists out in pairs. The message of God seems always to be conveyed by pairs of people – whether the Old Testament Law and Prophets, represented by Elijah and Moses – or the New Testament Church, represented by its pairs of “anointed ones” in Acts. These lampstands are the image of the Church.

The believers are Arks, themselves, of the Law. “I will write my laws on their hearts…”

That is one layer of truth about the Ark, indeed. It doesn’t exclude the Marian interpretation as the completeness of the Ark’s fulfillment, though, for more interpretations than one can simultaneously be true. There are layers to it.

The transition from Rev 11 to 12 is not 100% chronological, since, as you know, in order for Jesus to return to the earth and catch up His elect in Rev 11, He could not be born in Rev 12; whereas in Rev 12, you see Jesus born.

That is a good point. On the other hand, your choice to break 11 and 12 at verses 19 and 1 is arbitrary. In fact, breaking these sections at verses 18 and 19 of chapter 11 is more natural. 18 is where the praise of the saints ends. The use of the words “great portent” to open Rev. 12 seems directly connected with the “peals of thunder, earthquake and heavy hail” of Rev. 11:19.

Got to go . . . I’ll try and finish responding later.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

In Rev 11, it mentions a time when the beast will arise out of the abyss; this time is not explained/fulfilled until Rev 13.
You have to read very carefullly.

What’s your point, as regards this?

Remember also that there are typological beasts that predict the future beast. It isn’t easy to know which is which.

Remember that believers are saved “from the wrath to come”; it is only in the 7th trumpet that the wrath of God is revealed, so that directly after the believers are caught up by the LORD in Rev 11:11,12, you see the 7th trumpet sound, as it was also prophesied in Rev 10.

You’ll have a very hard time selling me on this one. The trumpets prior to the seventh certainly revealed God’s wrath. It may not have revealed all of it, but it indisputably revealed an enormous amount.

The Ark is Jesus, humanity overlaid with gold (faith, for without faith there is no purity – “he who has this hope in himself purified himself even as He is pure” 1 J 3:3).

The sources I cited said that gold very frequently refers to purity in the Bible.

It is true that purity and faith are of course connected. All virtues are connected to one another, for all of them are expressions of love, and in love all come together to their source. That doesn’t mean gold refers specifically to faith, though- the sources said when referring to the Tabernacle and Temple, it was referring to spiritual holiness, to purity. The Ark is the heart of that, so of course its gold refers to purity as well.

Faith is referred to in scripture as refined gold, if I recall correctly.

Perhaps the gold refers to both purity and faith. They are related, and one meaning does not exclude the other from also being true.

If you read the Book of Enoch, you will also see this very same event, wherein the people of the Earth see “how He sits on His throne”, which relates to Matt 24:31.

What I was saying was that Matthew 24:31 is the last day of John 6:44, wherein we are caught up to be with Him, and this is Rev 11:11,12, which is the final moment before the 7th Trumpet is blown, the trumpet revealing the wrath of God, from which we are saved.

I agree that the Matthew and John scriptures both speak of the Last Day. Rev. 11 is much less clear, for if the event described here was the Rapture, this would be very strange, for the result would be many people “Left Behind,” who give glory to God (v. 13).

However, this interpretation doesn’t make sense for the following reasons:
The Archdiocese of Galvisten:

The Apostle Paul, writing of the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, says that we who are alive “will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Believers in the Rapture theory will quote this text, but it does not support their view for several reasons.

First, this “catching away” of those on the earth happens at the same time as the resurrection of the dead, an event that clearly takes place at the end of the age and just prior to the final, general judgment (John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:11-15).

Second, the return of Christ described here is not a “hidden” coming noticed only by believing Christians, followed by the continuation of history. Rather, the “shout” of the archangel and the divine trumpet that herald this event suggest that it is visible and audible; it signals the disruption of history and the beginning of a new era. We find a remarkably similar description of the Second Advent in Matthew 24:27-31. The context is clearly “after the tribulation” and just prior to the judgment. It is most natural to see the events described in Thessalonians and Matthew 24 as identical.

diogh.org/youngacm/left_behind.htm

However, assuming the interpretation did make sense and this was the rapture, we’d immediately run into some chronology problems in verses 15-18. For instance, verse 15 says that the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of the Lord, and verse 16 announces he has “begun to reign.” Now, Christ began to reign when he ascended into Heaven and was seated at the right hand of the Father. All authority passed over to Him at that time. However, if your interpretation was correct, he comes and reigns in the middle of God’s judgments on the Earth! That’s what you’d have to believe if your interpretation is correct, for verse 14 says the second woe is passed but the third woe is coming soon. Christ’s reign must therefore be between the second and third woes, in the middle of God’s judgments rather than at either His ascension or His coming again at the very end.

Another problem swiftly presents itself. Verse 18 describes the judging of the dead and rewarding of the saints. These events might seem to be those of the Last Day- yet the third woe is still to come.

There could be a chronology break between Rev. 11:13 and verse 15. Verse 19 is pretty clearly connected to verse 1 of the following chapter, because it appears with such calamitous effects – flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Verse 1 of the next chapter says, “a great portent appeared in heaven,” which fits in directly with those heavenly disturbances of the previous verse. So does the fact that this ark of the covenant is at that moment revealed, and the woman is in the next verse said to be revealed.

These are pretty clearly chronologically connected.

Less easily connected, at least if your reading is true, are verses 14 and 15 of chapter 11. The Scripture itself clarifies that Rev. 11:11-12 do not describe the rapture, if verses 15-19 are seen as chronologically connected with verses 1-14. That’s because in verse 15, it says, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,” but 12:10 parallels this statement almost exactly, saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power of and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah.” These statements are plainly describing the same single event, not two different events. The reason this invalidates 11:11-12 as the Rapture if 11:15-19 are connected chronologically is that in the version in chapter 12, the Church remains on the Earth.

In fact, the version in chapter 11 also suggests strongly that the Church remains on the Earth, for it says that, “the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah.” The Lord’s kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. Thus the passage says the world’s kingdom has become a spiritual kingdom. If the Church had been raptured into Heaven, it would be gone, departed, not victoriously present on Earth and having grown so much that the entire world had become “the kingdom of our Lord.”

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I’m sorry if my response above is a bit incoherent, in its earlier parts. I was thinking a lot of things through for the first time as I was writing and reading them.

 

[dan1el]

What’s your point, as regards this?

Remember also that there are typological beasts that predict the future beast. It isn’t easy to know which is which.

You’ll have a very hard time selling me on this one. The trumpets prior to the seventh certainly revealed God’s wrath. It may not have revealed all of it, but it indisputably revealed an enormous amount.

The sources I cited said that gold very frequently refers to purity in the Bible.

It is true that purity and faith are of course connected. All virtues are connected to one another, for all of them are expressions of love, and in love all come together to their source. That doesn’t mean gold refers specifically to faith, though- the sources said when referring to the Tabernacle and Temple, it was referring to spiritual holiness, to purity. The Ark is the heart of that, so of course its gold refers to purity as well.

Faith is referred to in scripture as refined gold, if I recall correctly.

Perhaps the gold refers to both purity and faith. They are related, and one meaning does not exclude the other from also being true.

I agree that the Matthew and John scriptures both speak of the Last Day. Rev. 11 is much less clear, for if the event described here was the Rapture, this would be very strange, for the result would be many people “Left Behind,” who give glory to God (v. 13).

However, this interpretation doesn’t make sense for the following reasons:

diogh.org/youngacm/left_behind.htm

However, assuming the interpretation did make sense and this was the rapture, we’d immediately run into some chronology problems in verses 15-18. For instance, verse 15 says that the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of the Lord, and verse 16 announces he has “begun to reign.” Now, Christ began to reign when he ascended into Heaven and was seated at the right hand of the Father. All authority passed over to Him at that time. However, if your interpretation was correct, he comes and reigns in the middle of God’s judgments on the Earth! That’s what you’d have to believe if your interpretation is correct, for verse 14 says the second woe is passed but the third woe is coming soon. Christ’s reign must therefore be between the second and third woes, in the middle of God’s judgments rather than at either His ascension or His coming again at the very end.

Another problem swiftly presents itself. Verse 18 describes the judging of the dead and rewarding of the saints. These events might seem to be those of the Last Day- yet the third woe is still to come.

There could be a chronology break between Rev. 11:13 and verse 15. Verse 19 is pretty clearly connected to verse 1 of the following chapter, because it appears with such calamitous effects – flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Verse 1 of the next chapter says, “a great portent appeared in heaven,” which fits in directly with those heavenly disturbances of the previous verse. So does the fact that this ark of the covenant is at that moment revealed, and the woman is in the next verse said to be revealed.

These are pretty clearly chronologically connected.

Less easily connected, at least if your reading is true, are verses 14 and 15 of chapter 11. The Scripture itself clarifies that Rev. 11:11-12 do not describe the rapture, if verses 15-19 are seen as chronologically connected with verses 1-14. That’s because in verse 15, it says, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,” but 12:10 parallels this statement almost exactly, saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power of and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah.” These statements are plainly describing the same single event, not two different events. The reason this invalidates 11:11-12 as the Rapture if 11:15-19 are connected chronologically is that in the version in chapter 12, the Church remains on the Earth.

In fact, the version in chapter 11 also suggests strongly that the Church remains on the Earth, for it says that, “the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah.” The Lord’s kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. Thus the passage says the world’s kingdom has become a spiritual kingdom. If the Church had been raptured into Heaven, it would be gone, departed, not victoriously present on Earth and having grown so much that the entire world had become “the kingdom of our Lord.”

Yeah, this doctrine is not easily, nor quickly understood; actually, without the grace to live it, there are times I think that I shouldn’t discuss it: Jesus cursed the tree full of leaves, but which bore no fruit…

 

[dan1el]

Gold
Regardless, Jesus says, “I counsel you to buy of me gold, tried by fire.”
It says, “these fiery ordeals have come upon you for the trying of your faith.”
Therefore, the gold tried by fire is faith which has graduated into “patience” - “knowing this: that the trying of your faith worketh patience”
“Here is the patience of the saints.”
“In patience possess ye your souls.”
Patience is simply matured; seasoned faith.

The Wrath of God
The 7th Trumpet reveals the wrath of God in the 7 bowls of wrath. Nowhere else in Revelation does it speak of wrath until the 7th trumpet. You may think it is wrath, but it is not wrath until God says it is wrath. For this reason, it is written in the 10th chapter, “in the days when the 7th trumpet is tarrying to sound that the mystery of God should be finished.”
If the mystery of God is anything like the mystery of godliness in 1 Tim 3:16 it will end with the same way: being “received up into glory.” Which would make sense, since we are imitators and explainers of Christ.

It is true that purity and faith are of course connected. All virtues are connected to one another, for all of them are expressions of love, and in love all come together to their source. That doesn’t mean gold refers specifically to faith, though- the sources said when referring to the Tabernacle and Temple, it was referring to spiritual holiness, to purity. The Ark is the heart of that, so of course its gold refers to purity as well.

In the end, only those who “have this hope in them” will be pure, because only they will continue to purify themselves and keep themselves holy. 1 J 3:3 + Rev 22:11 Everyone else will fall. Without this gold, you cannot have purity; gold is the SOURCE of purity.

I agree that the Matthew and John scriptures both speak of the Last Day. Rev. 11 is much less clear, for if the event described here was the Rapture, this would be very strange, for the result would be many people “Left Behind,” who give glory to God (v. 13).

It is impossible to have left-behind Christians, since they are all raised and judged at the return of Jesus Christ - some to eternal shame and contempt, and some to everlasting life Daniel 12:2+Matthew 25: 31-46

It is not something I understand about how the believer can be raptured and then be found walking naked Rev 16:15… but remember that Jesus told a parable about a people who had ENTERED INTO the marriage feast (this is not the same situation as the 10 virgins with their lamps, but an event which is successive to it) after which, he was found “without a marriage garment”, and was summarily bound hand and foot and thrown into the outer darkness. Matthew 22:1-14 which goes together with biblical type and shadowing perfectly, conerning the fraction that will be saved: (1/3) Zech 13:9
Explanation: 1/2 of the virgins make it into the wedding feast Matt 25:1-13, but then some are kicked out Matt 22:1-14, bringing the remaining overcomers to the 1/3 of Zech 13:9.
In this sense, remember that Jesus, with the brightness of His coming, will destroy the son of perdition - but that this same glory will also destroy any lawlessness in us “but by your hard and impenitent heart, you treasure up wrath for yourself against the day of wrath and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.”
This is actually the “bema seat of Christ” Paul is speaking of.

The End of the Age
It is very clear that Matthew 24:31 is speaking of the last day; in what sense, I do not know. Is it the “last day” of THIS age, and the beginning of the “Millenial Kingdom”?
“For with the LORD a day is as a thousand years…” which is why the Millenial reign is referred to as the “Day of the Lord”, or is it saying that THAT day is the day Jesus returns, and it in itself is the final day of earth as we know it, with evil, and death - if this day included 1,000 years, it would include the judgment of satan at the end of it, the judgment of the dead at the end of it, and would bring you to Rev 21 where there is a new earth and a new heaven, and in this sense, it could be the end of the age (the end of the age wherein humanity’s sin-stain is upon the earth).
However, if you want to know that the reign of a king begins with rewarding his friends and punishing his enemies, only read 2 Kings 2:1-10, where Solomon’s reign began in exactly the same manner.
What does Jesus say? That He is coming quickly and that His reward is with Him. You know that some rewards are called “consequences” - “knowing that he will reward each man according to the works of his hands.”

Chronological Order
If you want to know whether the book of Revelation ought to be interpreted 100% chronologically, I advise you to study first the pattern set by the revelatory book of Daniel, to see whether a book must be written in this manner. Is it in chronological order? Hardly. It begins with one king, transitions to the next, then recounts a time before Babylon was conquered. After this, he begins to mesh out the details of the revelation given to him. He goes further and further and further into details, like what we have today with the satellite picture of the earth, which allows you to see the earth, but one zoom in, and you see countries, one zoom in, and you see states, another zoom in and you see counties, etc.; but is the book in chronological order? No.

However, assuming the interpretation did make sense and this was the rapture, we’d immediately run into some chronology problems in verses 15-18. For instance, verse 15 says that the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of the Lord, and verse 16 announces he has “begun to reign.” Now, Christ began to reign when he ascended into Heaven and was seated at the right hand of the Father. All authority passed over to Him at that time. However, if your interpretation was correct, he comes and reigns in the middle of God’s judgments on the Earth! That’s what you’d have to believe if your interpretation is correct, for verse 14 says the second woe is passed but the third woe is coming soon. Christ’s reign must therefore be between the second and third woes, in the middle of God’s judgments rather than at either His ascension or His coming again at the very end.

Remember that we are caught up to be with Him in the clouds, but we reign with Him in power for 1,000 years on the earth. Remember that it says in one of the minor prophets that “the Lord’s foot will touch Mt. Olivet” We are going out to greet Him, but that in no way means we are not welcoming Him to the earth. When a Prince goes into a city, there is alot of fanfare, but it doesn’t stop the Prince from entering the city. We go out to meet Him, carry out judgment with Him “I will give you a rod of iron”, “do you not know that you will judge angels” , and then descend to the earth - after how much time, I do not know.

**Lightning & The Ark **
Actually, the Ark, being Jesus, the Word, would bring lightnings, because in Ezekiel 1, the lightnings are generated at the throne of God by the moving of the Cherubim. Therefore, it cannot be Mary, but God the Father or Jesus only.
This does’t necessarily have to be in chronological order, because he said, “And I saw another sign in heaven.” It could represent a “break”.

Less easily connected, at least if your reading is true, are verses 14 and 15 of chapter 11. The Scripture itself clarifies that Rev. 11:11-12 do not describe the rapture, if verses 15-19 are seen as chronologically connected with verses 1-14.
That’s because in verse 15, it says, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,” but 12:10 parallels this statement almost exactly, saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power of and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah.” These statements are plainly describing the same single event, not two different events. The reason this invalidates 11:11-12 as the Rapture if 11:15-19 are connected chronologically is that in the version in chapter 12, the Church remains on the Earth.

It actually makes perfect sense.

In fact, the version in chapter 11 also suggests strongly that the Church remains on the Earth, for it says that, “the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah.” The Lord’s kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.

This is speaking of the time when the reaper will overtake the sower. Spiritual reality begins to overtake/overlap with physical reality.

Thus the passage says the world’s kingdom has become a spiritual kingdom. If the Church had been raptured into Heaven, it would be gone, departed, not victoriously present on Earth and having grown so much that the entire world had become “the kingdom of our Lord.”

This is referring to Daniel 7:12, where it says the dominion of the first 3 beasts (not the fourth, which is destroyed, which is the one seen in Rev 13) is taken from them (and given to the saints Daniel 7:22) yet they are given a time and season to live on the earth. Over these the saints will rule Luke 19:17.

I admit that I don’t understand it all…

 

[dan1el]

Moses & Elijah as the Two Witnesses
Because Rev 11 is referring to Zech 4, which in turn is referring to Mark 9:4. Here you have the Lord of all the Earth (Jesus) and the two anointed ones (Moses & Elijah) whose Law and Prophets characterization are the two “Witnesses” to the great “Love” Commandment. "On these two [love] commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The law can only witness to you that you are not walking in love. The prophets rebuke people for not walking according to the law of love. If you’ve read only a small bit of them, you will know that what I am saying is true.

It is not always true that believers were sent out in pairs. Like (I think) you said, there was an Apostle who was taken to preach salvation and baptize a certain eunuch alone.

Moses and Elijah are two of God’s anointed ones. On the other hand, Barnabas and Paul went out together as pairs of witnesses too in Acts. The Early Church sent their evangelists out in pairs. The message of God seems always to be conveyed by pairs of people – whether the Old Testament Law and Prophets, represented by Elijah and Moses – or the New Testament Church, represented by its pairs of “anointed ones” in Acts. These lampstands are the image of the Church.

Remember that “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”** Matt 13:43** Moses and Elijah are in Heaven right now; they are shining as the sun. The lampstand is the church Rev 1:20; however, in Rev 2:5 Jesus warns the church to repent and says “or else I will remove your lampstand out of its place”. Does this make sense?
I believe that the lampstand may be the church, but the fire and illumination which is the lamp aspect, is the 7 Spirits of God, of which He is warning them He will take away. The warning to this church is similar to the one given by Paul in Galatians: “you have fallen from grace” (comp to Rev 2:5) “Christ has become of no avail to you” “I am afraid for you”.

That is a good point. On the other hand, your choice to break 11 and 12 at verses 19 and 1 is arbitrary.

It is possible, because I am so used to reading the book in chaptered form; I have so long wanted to read a version without chapters and verses.

 

[dan1el]

Moses & Elijah as the Two Witnesses
Because Rev 11 is referring to Zech 4, which in turn is referring to Mark 9:4. Here you have the Lord of all the Earth (Jesus) and the two anointed ones (Moses & Elijah) whose Law and Prophets characterization are the two “Witnesses” to the great “Love” Commandment.
“On these two [love] commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
The law can only witness to you that you are not walking in love. The prophets rebuke people for not walking according to the law of love. If you’ve read only a small bit of them, you will know that what I am saying is true.

Sent Out In Pairs
It is not always true that believers were sent out in pairs. Like (I think) you said, there was an Apostle who was taken to preach salvation and baptize a certain eunuch alone.

Moses and Elijah are two of God’s anointed ones. On the other hand, Barnabas and Paul went out together as pairs of witnesses too in Acts. The Early Church sent their evangelists out in pairs. The message of God seems always to be conveyed by pairs of people – whether the Old Testament Law and Prophets, represented by Elijah and Moses – or the New Testament Church, represented by its pairs of “anointed ones” in Acts. These lampstands are the image of the Church.

Remember that “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”** Matt 13:43** Moses and Elijah are in Heaven right now; they are shining as the sun. The lampstand is the church Rev 1:20; however, in Rev 2:5 Jesus warns the church to repent and says “or else I will remove your lampstand out of its place”. Does this make sense?
I believe that the lampstand may be the church, but the fire and illumination which is the lamp aspect, is the 7 Spirits of God, of which He is warning them He will take away. The warning to this church is similar to the one given by Paul in Galatians: “you have fallen from grace” (comp to Rev 2:5) “Christ has become of no avail to you” “I am afraid for you”.

That is a good point. On the other hand, your choice to break 11 and 12 at verses 19 and 1 is arbitrary.

It is possible, because I am so used to reading the book in chaptered form; I have so long wanted to read a version without chapters and verses.