resurrection of the body

[Daedelus76]

BTW. I think actually thinking about these things has helped me see how faith can be reasonable and relevent and not some wooden thing you either accept or reject, but something that can grow and adapt as you live it. Too much emphasis on doctrines can be a barrier to actual spiritual growth, that is my feeling.

 

[heiscominginthe]

I don’t care if it agrees with your interpretation of the scriptures or not frankly. I don’t believe in Protestant conservative/“orthodox” notions of the Bible, that it fell from heaven and God wrote every word. St. Paul was not a scientist or philosopher. What he said was relevent to his time, now I think it is less relevent. There are philosophical problems with the way resurrection is traditionally understood according to “orthodoxy” if you insist on nuts and bolts. IMO, it is one of the least important ideas in Christianity. I don’t see how a more spiritual interpretation automaticly makes it wrong. I DON’T believe Jesus’ Easter appearance was a mere ghost, hallucination, or wish fullfillment, BTW. I think it was a “veridical reality”, and I’ll leave it at that.

You aren’t arguing with me. You are arguing with the Word of God. So what you believe is irrelevant.

 

[Lisa44]

Daedelus76;5041006]

I had some experiences from meditation that, looking back, were very much like being aware of the “presence of God”. I think this is what Hebrews were talking about when they talked about the “glory of the Lord” and the “fear of the Lord” and “shekinah” (the immanent aspect of God). I actually started wondering if it wasn’t God. I know there is a liberal Zen roshi in Japan that works with Catholics interested in studying with him (unfortunately the name slips me, but Rubin Habito was a Jesuit priest and student of his), and he believes the experiences are similar, but it cannot be proven since the experience is subjective. .

Hi Daedelus,
I would be wary of comparing different spiritual “fruits” or experiences, accross the board. For one thing, it assumes that all roads lead to the same place, and that is not at all true.

For the moment I am focused on “Mere Christianity” and trying to wrestle with that first (the church I have been visiting is “Anglo-Catholic”, not really in the Reformed tradition completely… they have rituals similar to Catholic or Orthodox but the beliefs are Episcopalian). I have some issues with certain papal doctrines (infallability, transubstantiation) and I’m not convinced all the Gospels are absolutely authoritative, nor is church tradition. I think at best we can get close but we cannot be certain of anything, which is a good reason to ultimately search for God yourself at some point and not totally hand that over to other people. I think apostolic succession isn’t thoroughly convincing, a certain point I’m not convinced of it- I don’t see how Peter got in Rome, for one thing. I think God works in alot of different ways, I have no desire to get involved in sectarianism.

I understand why you are not joining the Catholic Church at present due to lack of belief in some dogmas. That is honest. Its better to be honest then to say you believe in something that you really don’t believe in.

Maybe it’s just taste. Some of the Catholic hymns I have heard are terrible Also, while I’m not in theory against veneration of saints and some of the Marian doctrines, Catholics often take it to an extreme degree. I think it is an issue of different tastes and traditions.

I see those issues are periphreal. When Jesus was talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he was talking about living off him in a spiritual sense. The “How” of that wasn’t important, I don’t even think it is required for salvation (look at the thief on the cross). A ritual can certain have meaning or energy behind it though that is transformative, however, have you heard of “Spiritual Comunnion”? I also don’t agree with transubstantiation, too much Scholastic metaphysics. Certainly I don’t understand why the matter-content of the ritual matters all that much (what about cultures where wine and bread are unusual? In Japan during persecution they used crushed rice- mochi, and black tea. Why couldn’t that work for God?).

maybe one day you will believe.

 

[Daedelus76]

I actually talked to somebody who is Orthodox, talking about doubts and lack of absolute certainty I had now days because of an experience I had in Buddhism (it was a “no-self” experience, my identity unraveled), and he told me what his priest told him, “There will be many with orthodox beliefs in Hell”. He told me to just get involved in a church and God would find where I needed to go and what I needed to believe.

Mostly, my interest in Christianity is the fact it seems to have more empirical reality to it than anything in Buddhism. It fits the scientific worldview in some ways that are better - Buddhism has a mythology of its own that, in the end, I found hard to believe. That doesn’t mean I think everything in Christianity is perfect, though. I don’t have the energy of belief anymore, that kind of disappeared with much of my ego. I definitely am not an atheist, though, if that means denying some kind of objective, immaterial reality.

 

[Daedelus76]

You aren’t arguing with me. You are arguing with the Word of God. So what you believe is irrelevant.

An Orthodox acquaintance I know told me something his priest told him “There will be many with orthodox beliefs in Hell”.

 

[heiscominginthe]

What you assert sounds biblical, except for the part that there is no bodily resurrection for the damned. What Scripture do you base this idea upon?
Matthew 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
John 5:28-29, “…an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

I believe that the resurrection for the believers is into a changed body that will never die.

For unbelievers, there is nothing in scripture to says they receive eternal bodies. It does say they will be in torment forever.

 

[budgie2]

I don’t know if it’s already been said as I haven’t read everybody. It is Catholic tradition that in the beginning God created Adam and Eve who represent the first society on Earth to have immortal bodies and live forever on Earth. However, because of sin God brought death into the world. It is still God’s intention however that some of us have eternal life on Earth in physical form and this life and death is some type of test to make sure that we are fit to live with other people forever on the planet. It is not that God wanted us to die for the sake of it but some people are too horrible to be here for ever so some people will have their souls destroyed at death and others will just become part of the omnipresence of God a bit like in Buddhism. Others are worthy of being resurrected and living forever and they will build a new society and world order. That is also why we believe in world without end. My theology, don’t nick and I’m waiting for a confessor. Some of this is divine revelation.

 

[heiscominginthe]

I don’t know if it’s already been said as I haven’t read everybody. It is Catholic tradition that in the beginning God created Adam and Eve who represent the first society on Earth to have immortal bodies and live forever on Earth. However, because of sin God brought death into the world. It is still God’s intention however that some of us have eternal life on Earth in physical form and this life and death is some type of test to make sure that we are fit to live with other people forever on the planet. It is not that God wanted us to die for the sake of it but some people are too horrible to be here for ever so some people will have their souls destroyed at death and others will just become part of the omnipresence of God a bit like in Buddhism. Others are worthy of being resurrected and living forever and they will build a new society and world order. That is also why we believe in world without end. My theology, don’t nick and I’m waiting for a confessor. Some of this is divine revelation.

When the church receives their eternal bodies, they will live on earth with Jesus. Yet, there will still be men and women who had not been born again who survive the great tribulation when God pours out his judgement upon mankind.

I believe the saints who have been resurrected will be helping Jesus govern over the earth.

As for the new society, that will occur when Jesus establishes his earthly kingdom. Yet, at the end of the 1000 year reign on earth, the devil is released to tempt the world one last time at which time he and all who follow him will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

The earth and I believe possibly all of creation is destroyed and a new heaven and earth are created for the children of God.

 

[budgie2]

When the church receives their eternal bodies, they will live on earth with Jesus. Yet, there will still be men and women who had not been born again who survive the great tribulation when God pours out his judgement upon mankind.

I believe the saints who have been resurrected will be helping Jesus govern over the earth.

As for the new society, that will occur when Jesus establishes his earthly kingdom. Yet, at the end of the 1000 year reign on earth, the devil is released to tempt the world one last time at which time he and all who follow him will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

The earth and I believe possibly all of creation is destroyed and a new heaven and earth are created for the children of God.

Why do you believe the devil’s coming after 1000 years? I believe that we will be given special grace at the resurrection so that we cannot commit mortal sins or at least some of them although we will also have some free will. We’ll be able to commit some sins like adultery but not murder or serious sexual abuse. I don’t believe the devil will come after 1000 years although we will still retain some free will.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Why do you believe the devil’s coming after 1000 years? I believe that we will be given special grace at the resurrection so that we cannot commit mortal sins or at least some of them although we will also have some free will. We’ll be able to commit some sins like adultery but not murder or serious sexual abuse. I don’t believe the devil will come after 1000 years although we will still retain some free will.

Your argument is not with me, but is with the Word of God.

Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[budgie2]

Do you also believe that 144,000 will be saved? That’s also from the Word of God in the Book of Revelation. I don’t know what the devil coming after 1000 years means but the Book of Revelation is a bit surreal although there’s also hidden truth.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Do you also believe that 144,000 will be saved? That’s also from the Word of God in the Book of Revelation. I don’t know what the devil coming after 1000 years means but the Book of Revelation is a bit surreal although there’s also hidden truth.

I do indeed believe that the 144,000 will be saved, but with one difference. These are the last day preachers who will spread the gospel of Jesus Christ once the Church has been removed from off the face of the earth. These are not Gentiles, but Jews.

For the duty of preaching to the World once belonged to Israel, but was removed from them because of the hardness of their hearts and given to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.

We are in what is known as the time of the Gentiles in which the Lord has given his Word to the Gentiles to preach to the World. Yet, when the church is removed during the tribulation period, the time of the Gentiles will be at it’s end and Israel will once again carry the banner of the Lord to the World.

Now, you speak of hidden truth and you are correct in a sense. For the Word of God is hidden, is a mystery to the unbelievers. Yet, to the believers, it is not. And it is prophesized that in the end days, the book of revelations would be revealed and this is occuring as we speak.

Beware, for the coming of the Lord is near, even at the door.