Rethinking Martin Luther

[hansard]

Luther was the model of a devoted and penitent Catholic. All Catholics should admire his dedication and his willingness to seek reform in the Church.
Some of his 95 Theses were beyond question, many were quite reasonable and many more were at least worthy of debate, but the times did not suit a priest challenging the church. I believe his excommunication still stands. If so, it is the most shameful reflection on the modern church.

While I have no problem with apostolic succession of the priesthood, it does nonetheless create a “follower” mentality among the faithful. For much of my life, for example, I was told what to believe. On the odd occasion I questioned anything, I was told “Father said so” or “How dare you question the church!” That kind of thinking does not really foster an educated, thinking congregation, or a body of worshippers who know what they are doing.

This is why Luther’s idea of a “priesthood of all believers” has such appeal. Christ is present in the body of people (as he promised to be).

 

[olds442]

You are correct that there is corruption in “The Church” today. We need to be clear, though, that the corruption of the Reformation era is of the Reformation era. While there is corruption in the Church, it is not just the Catholic Church, but ours as well, and all others.

Jon

Thank You Jon for pointing that out.

 

[rinnie]

How is an organization made up of fallible men made infallible? Are you saying that the Church is above the Word when you say “instead of an inerrant book”. Please clarify.

Thanks

Nope, but I guess you are. Who ever said that the RCC was made up of infallible men? We didn’t. Who ever said that the orgaization was the Church? We didn’t. Jesus said that him and his Church are one, not us. Jesus leads the RCC not fallible men. When did a Pope or Bishop say that the teachings that they taught came from what they thought?

Or is it that when the Pope does speak from the seat of Peter he is speaking with that divine Power called the Holy Spirit the advocate that Jesus promised. Where did the Pope or Bishops in communion with him ever take the credit for the words that came from God. I never heard them say these are MY WORDS and MY IDEALS. Did You?

 

[rinnie]

Thank You Jon for pointing that out.

But what does having humans who fall from grace have to do with the teachings of the RCC?

I mean was Judas not a Apostle of Christ. Do you not think that Jesus knew Judas would betray him. Did Jesus promise us that any human would never fall from grace?

If that were the case why Did Jesus tell Peter he would pray for him? Why would those prayers be needed if when you become a follower of Christ you lost free will?

But in the same token were any of the teaching’s Judas taught that he learned from Jesus a Lie? Did Judas’ failure to stay in the state of Grace make the teaching’s for Christ and promises of Christ a lie today? Then how can you blame the Church for teachers that fell from Grace. Where did Jesus promise that the leaders would never fail. I believe his words were the Church would never fail?

Could you show me a teaching that the Pope and Bishops in communion with rome have ever taught as being the Teachings of Christ have ever changed or led you astray? I would love to see just one.

Could any protestant make the same statement?

 

[rinnie]

John 16

I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak.

Now, that seems to me like Jesus is saying to those he appointed to form his church that the Holy Spirit would over a period of time reveal things to them and their successors - Jesus says he has many things yet to say and that the spirit over a period of time would reveal them. Ive garnered enough information to know that there were some seriously wacked out popes, but in the matter of faith and morals, I dont think the church itself has ever erred because of Jesus’ promise. This ties in with the development of doctrine within the church, as oppose to the introduction of new dogma’s etc - something Ive struggled a lot with.

If I may, Jesus never said over a period of time. Jesus said until I come again in glory. So until Jesus comes back the Church will continue to teach the way it started from the beginning by the Power of the Holy Spirit. The advocate has been promised until the end of time. Not period of time.

 

[Nita]

Luther was the model of a devoted and penitent Catholic. All Catholics should admire his dedication and his willingness to seek reform in the Church.
Some of his 95 Theses were beyond question, many were quite reasonable and many more were at least worthy of debate, but the times did not suit a priest challenging the church. I believe his excommunication still stands. If so, it is the most shameful reflection on the modern church.

There really is/was no choice regarding Luther’s excommunication. His challenge went beyond just those mentioned in the 95 Theses.
He rejected not only Indulgences and Purgatory, but also the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, transubstantiation, Papal authority, infallibility of the Pope and the Magisterium. There are probably more, but those are the ones that come to mind. How could one who publicly preaches thus be acknowledged by the Church as Catholic?