Rev 11:19 - 12:1

[JesusIsTheWay]

I am reposting this thread here because no one replied to it in it’s original location…

This was said by another member:

As to Bible verses that refer to Mary’s assumption, someone already gave it to you, Rev 11:19 - 12:1. Catholics believe this is refering to Mary and her assumption.

Now I read this and it definately talks about a woman… But I read all of Chapter 11 and 12 and I see nothing about her going into Heaven…

12:6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

the goes into the desert…

12:14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

and she was given wings to go into the “place that was prepared for her in the desert”

All these places referred to about the woman are talking about earthly places but it never says she went into heaven…

I don’t find this a convincing verse shat shows Mary went to heaven… please help.

(edit: I noticed after post that i inadvertantly quoted the NIV version, however after looking at the KJV, it’s almost the same thing except that desert (NIV) is wilderness (kjv))

 

[hlgomez]

Where do you think are the Apostles and the faithful followers who followed Jesus and have died? Are they in heaven? If you say yes, then how about Mary who is the Mother of God? Where is she now?

Pio

 

[trogiah]

The book of Revelation is so filled with symbolic language that finding a verse that is truly convincing on any topic might be difficult.

On the other hand, I think the following verses are very convincing in regards to Mary’s being very close to God"

“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.”

And Mary said:
***“My soul glorifies the Lord
******* 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
*** 48for he has been mindful
*******of the humble state of his servant.
***From now on all generations will call me blessed,
******* 49for the Mighty One has done great things for me–
*******holy is his name.
*** 50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
*******from generation to generation.
*** 51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
*******he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
*** 52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
*******but has lifted up the humble.
*** 53He has filled the hungry with good things
*******but has sent the rich away empty.
*** 54He has helped his servant Israel,
*******remembering to be merciful
*** 55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
*******even as he said to our fathers.”

These are from Luke’s Gospel. There are a few others. All verses relating to Mary indicate her complete faith in God and her willingness to submit her will to God. In this respect, she is what her son tried to get the rest of the world to be.l

Is this convincing proof that she was assumed into heaven?

If she wasn’t, I can’t imagine anyone else who would be.

-Jim

 

[SteveG]

Here is an article from Catholic Answers that may shed light…

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

The bottom line here is that you are asking us to prove from scripture something that is not explicit in scripture and is only hinted at. Forcing us to defend it on those grounds brings in the issue (as always) of Sola Scriptura (a different thread), which we as Catholic do not accept.

For a better understanding of Catholic issues as supported by scripture (including the assumption), see Dave Armstrong’s website here…
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM
…and scroll down until you see the topical index, click on the '**Mary: The Blessed Virgin ’ **topic, and you’ll see a good discussion of these topics from a biblical perspective.

Again, remember though, we don’t not labor under Sola Scriptura, so the scriptural evidence need not be as open and shut for us as you’d like it to be.

Also some links to Scott Hahn’s transcribe talks on Mary…
star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/ma.html
star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/m.html
…which are from a very biblical perspective.

Hope that helps.

 

[Fiat]

Regarding whether Rev. 12 indicates if Our Blessed Mother was assumed to heaven, I suggest you read the verse preceding Rev. 12. (Remember that chapters and verses were added to scripture later on.) Rev. 11:19 reveals the temple of God and the ark. Then immediately following this image is the wonder appearing “in heaven” (according to King James Version) or in “the sky” (according to NAB) in Rev. 12:1. This seems to indicate to me that these events are taking place in heaven and not on Earth.

In Christ

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

trogiah:

The book of Revelation is so filled with symbolic language that finding a verse that is truly convincing on any topic might be difficult.

On the other hand, I think the following verses are very convincing in regards to Mary’s being very close to God"

“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.”

And Mary said:
***“My soul glorifies the Lord
******* 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
*** 48for he has been mindful
*******of the humble state of his servant.
***From now on all generations will call me blessed,
******* 49for the Mighty One has done great things for me–
*******holy is his name.
*** 50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
*******from generation to generation.
*** 51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
*******he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
*** 52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
*******but has lifted up the humble.
*** 53He has filled the hungry with good things
*******but has sent the rich away empty.
*** 54He has helped his servant Israel,
*******remembering to be merciful
*** 55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
*******even as he said to our fathers.”

These are from Luke’s Gospel. There are a few others. All verses relating to Mary indicate her complete faith in God and her willingness to submit her will to God. In this respect, she is what her son tried to get the rest of the world to be.l

Is this convincing proof that she was assumed into heaven?

If she wasn’t, I can’t imagine anyone else who would be.

-Jim

No this doesn’t tell me she was assumed… this tells me that she was saved by all means… but not that she is there now…

2 things:

1. the scripture I was referring to seems to indicate that the woman is on eath and remains until the final conflict
2. the very definition of “Assumed”: To take for granted; suppose: assumed that prices would rise. To take over without justification

basically thinking somthing happened without proof.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

I’ll repost my reply from the other thread:

ok… that is where the woman originated… in heaven… not her destination…

Remember that Revelation does not necessarily go in chronological order. At one point, it might be talking about the tribulation, in another the first coming of Christ. The description in 12:1 is talking about Mary’s current state, and then goes into a historical description of events.

i would think that if this woman was that important then revelations (or the author) would have named her… unless of course the woman is a symbol in prophecy and therefore not a literal person…

If you look at Revelation 19:11 and following, you’ll see it’s pretty obvious that the passage is talking about Jesus, BUT, the passage doesn’t say that the person is Jesus. That certainly doesn’t mean that the figure is not a literal person, but it goes to show the style of the writing (apocalyptic literature) rarely uses proper names. For example, “the beast” as opposed to “Ronald Reagan.”

 

[hlgomez]

JesusIsTheWay,

I would like to repeat my question. Where are the Apostles right now? DO you believe they are in heaven? If they are, what about Mary? Is she anywhere else but heaven?

If you believe the Apostles are in heaven, and also the faithful believers, are they written in the Bible? Does the Bible tells about their names?

If you believe they are in heaven, then you cannot rely on Bible alone since it doesn’t name names who it is who is in heaven.

Pio

 

[Fidelis]

JesusIsTheWay:

1. the very definition of “Assumed”: To take for granted; suppose: assumed that prices would rise. To take over without justification

basically thinking somthing happened without proof.

This may be part of your problem understanding this subject. When we say Mary was assumed, we are not using the definition that means “to take for granted.” Another definition for assumed, and the one meant here, is “to be drawn up” or “to take or sit in a place or position.” It’s like when a fitness instructor tells you to “assume the postion” before starting a certain exercise.

Hope that helps.

 

[cursillo255]

One strong point of Tradition regarding Mary’s Assumption (assuming of course that you accept Tradition) which I saw somewhere (don’t know if it was a Catholic Answers tract or elsewhere) is the status of her burial. No one, and most especially critical non-Marian Protestants, can deny the Marian devotion that seems to exist almost everywhere in the Catholic and Orthodox world. Yet with all the veneration of Saints relics, shrines, “holy sites”, Marian devotions and apparition sites in the World, - no single group or place claims to possess the tomb, bones, or final resting place of Mary the Mother of our Lord. Why is this, - lest she was assumed into Heaven ??

 

[SPH1]

JITW,

Here’s a pretty good article dealing with the Assumption:
envoymagazine.com/backissues/article.asp?ID=150

This site, “The Truth About Mary”, is the best I’ve yet seen on her:
mariology.com/

Cursillo,

Yet with all the veneration of Saints relics, shrines, “holy sites”, Marian devotions and apparition sites in the World, - no single group or place claims to possess the tomb, bones, or final resting place of Mary the Mother of our Lord. Why is this

I’ve often used this line of reasoning. Many churches and cathedrals in her honor; none claim her relics. Even without the doctrine of the Assumption, it still wouldn’t be consistent with Tradition to say that she is presently buried somewhere.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

*Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. Revelation 11:19 Now the physical ark was lost in the Babylonian invasion. There is no reason to believe that it is in Heaven. So what is being referred to here?

Note Behind the second veil was the tabernacle called the Holy of Holies, in which were the gold altar of incense 4 and the ark of the covenant entirely covered with gold. In it were the gold jar containing the manna, the staff of Aaron that had sprouted, and the tablets of the covenant. **Hebrews 9:3-4

Revelation **concerns the New Testament, not the Old; so what in the New Testament is the archetype for the ark. Note that Mary contained Jesus - the true Bread from Heaven [manna], the true Priest [staff of Aaron], and the Word of God [for which the tablets were a prototype].

Not proof, but a good plausibility argument.