Rev 12 doesn't refer to Mary due to painful birth in text?

[servus]

I have a serious problem with the idea that the Woman in Apocalypse is Mary.

Why cannot the woman be Mary?

“And the dragon was furious with the woman, and went to wage war with the remnant of her seed, which obey the commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ” Apocalypse 12:17

The woman is introduced in verse 1, carried through many trials but divinely protected. And in ver. 17 the remnant of the woman is presented as those who obey God’s commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The woman is presented as many. It makes much more sense to consider the woman the Church.

Pacis…

Servus

 

[auhsoj88]

Pain is a conseqence of original sin and should not be synonomis with original sin as some people incorrectly imply.

Many women today have naturall child birth with abosolutely no pain. Does it mean they are not descendants of Adam and Eve???

My sister in law is a nurse at a hopital, she says some women (mostly the larger woman) walk in to labor and 5 minutes later the baby is out, with no or very little issue whatsoever. Then there is some women who sream all night.

In Christ!

 

[NotWorthy]

I have a serious problem with the idea that the Woman in Apocalypse is Mary.

Why cannot the woman be Mary?

…

The woman is introduced in verse 1, carried through many trials but divinely protected. And in ver. 17 the remnant of the woman is presented as those who obey God’s commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The woman is presented as many. It makes much more sense to consider the woman the Church.

Pacis…

Servus

The Church (I believe) teaches that the Woman represents (in no particular order)
a) The Church
b) Israel
c) Mary

I’ve got no problem with someone who thinks it’s the Church, or Israel. I just disagree that their conclusion prevents Mary from being represented.

Check post #20 for my reasons, if you’d like.

 

[auhsoj88]

I have a serious problem with the idea that the Woman in Apocalypse is Mary.

Why cannot the woman be Mary?

“And the dragon was furious with the woman, and went to wage war with the remnant of her seed, which obey the commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ” Apocalypse 12:17

The woman is introduced in verse 1, carried through many trials but divinely protected. And in ver. 17 the remnant of the woman is presented as those who obey God’s commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The woman is presented as many. It makes much more sense to consider the woman the Church.

Pacis…

Servus

How can the Church have labor pains…Please explain,

These pasages are talking about individuals, the Woman (individual), child (individual), and the Dragon (individual).

Also consider that it was initially Jesus that gave us the Church, (I will build my Church, etc) not that the Church initially gave us Jesus.

In Christ!

 

[Church_Militant]

There is nothing the Bible that in any way indicates that Mary was supposed to not have labor pains.

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

Very well put…and people say Catholics don’t know their bible

Silly Protestants…the Bible is for Catholics!

Ah I miss those Trix commercials.

 

[auhsoj88]

There is nothing the Bible that in any way indicates that Mary was supposed to not have labor pains.

Correct!

A consequence of Original Sin was human death, also!

Jesus died for us but was also preserved from original sin.

In Christ!

 

[patrick457]

How can the Church have labor pains…Please explain,

These pasages are talking about individuals, the Woman (individual), child (individual), and the Dragon (individual).

Also consider that it was initially Jesus that gave us the Church, (I will build my Church, etc) not that the Church initially gave us Jesus.

In Christ!

If the woman is taken as a symbol of the Church, then the labor pains would represent the Suffering the Church experienced and experiences today.

Why do Protestants deny Mary is the Woman of the Apocalypse?

 

[Mannyfit75]

If the woman is taken as a symbol of the Church, then the labor pains would represent the Suffering the Church experienced and experiences today.

Why do Protestants deny Mary is the Woman of the Apocalypse?

Because they refuse the acknowledge the true. Which the Church is the Pillar of Truth…and foundation…

 

[patrick457]

Because they refuse the acknowledge the true. Which the Church is the Pillar of Truth…and foundation…

Ah, a simple case of Mariaphobia.

I just had something in my head,

Protestants say Catholics practice Mariolatry.
Catholics say Protestants has Mariaphobia.

 

[mich2]

The Church (I believe) teaches that the Woman represents (in no particular order)
a) The Church
b) Israel
c) Mary

I’ve got no problem with someone who thinks it’s the Church, or Israel. I just disagree that their conclusion prevents Mary from being represented.

Check post #20 for my reasons, if you’d like.

I fully agree;also, since the women is crowned in heaven, the symbolism of Mary must refer to a time “after” the crucifixion. The child born is therefore not Jesus as such but a christlike figure (Shilo?) or even an image of the kingdom being brought forth ( the kingdom being brought in birthpangs).

"Hark, an uproar from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, rendering recompense to his enemies! “Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons. Shall I bring to the birth and not cause to bring forth? says the LORD; shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb? says your God.” Isaiah 66:5

I understand this as Jesus being brought forth in the absence of birth pangs (due to the immaculate state of Mary) and her experiencing the birthpangs afterwards by bringing forth the kingdom

Andre