Rev 2:5 "remove thy candlestick"

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Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

What does this passage mean? Particularly the “remove thy candlestick” part.

Thank You~
 
Here is a correct version of what Rev 2:5 should be

5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

We are to do penance not just repent, do penance!!!

A small excerpt from the Haydock Bible Commentary

— Do penance…practise the first works, return to thy first fervour, or I will remove thy candlestick out of its place. The church of Ephesus is threatened, as in danger to lose its faith, which faith should be transplanted and received in other places. It is what God has divers times permitted, that churches flourishing in the profession of the true Christian faith should be perverted by infidelity and heresy, while the faith hath been planted in other kingdoms of the world. I need not bring instances, where candlesticks have been removed out of their places. (Witham) —

Why must Catholics insist on using Protestant and incorrect Bibles???
 
According to St. Victorinus, the removal means to disperse the congregation: “And thou hast left thy first love: remember whence thou hast fallen.” He who falls, falls from a height: therefore He said whence: because, even to the very last, works of love must be practiced; and this is the principal commandment. Finally, unless this is done, He threatened to remove their candlestick out of its place, that is, to disperse the congregation. [St. Victorinus Commentary on the Apocalypse] 304AD

**According to Oecumenius, the removal means Christ abandonment: **By the removal of the candlestick, that is, the church, he means his abandonment of it, as a result of which sinners become involved in every kind of disturbance and tumult, so that they say, “My eye was troubled in my soul, and my heart was troubled within me. (Ps. 30:10)” [Oecumenius Commentary of Revelation] 6th Century

Penance is needed from the redeemed: And indeed, writing to the seven churches, rebuking each one of them with its own crimes and sins, it said, “Do penance.” To whom but to them, doubtless, whom He had redeemed at the great price of His blood? [A Treatise Against the Heretic Novatian by an Anonymous Bishop Verse 13] 240AD

**Apringius explains that penance is needed to cleanse us from sin: **For although He wishes that we remember those instances in which we have badly fallen, He exhorts that we might not fall again. And that our faults which we have committed might be cleansed, He shows a way by which one might come to pardon when He says, “Do penance.” That is, wash away your sins with tears, just as, “that sinful woman,” as a type of the Church, “washed the feet of Jesus with he trears and wiped them with her hair.(Lk. 7:44)” And He exhorts and commands what one should do after penance: “Do your first works,” either by an extraordinary goodness or do those works which you had done in the earnestness of your first conversion. [Apringius of Beja Commentary on Revelation] 6th Century

St. Cyprian points out that penance is necessary for the baptized: This is certainly said to him who, it is ascertained, has fallen and whom since is it written, “Alms deliver…from death.(Tobit 4:11)” Certainly not from that death which once the blood of Christ extinguished and from which the water of beneficial baptism and the grace of our Redeemer freed us, but from that which afterward creeps in through sins after baptism. The Lord certainly would not exhort to repentance if it were not because He promises pardon to the penitent. [St. Cyprian Letter 55.22] 248AD

Penance is a righteous work: Laying aside all rash haste, they should manifest a religious patience to God, so that when by His mercy we come together, we may debate upon all kinds of things, according to the discipline of the Church, especially since it is written, “Remember from whence thou hast fallen, and repent.” Now he repents, who, remembering the divine precept, with meekness and patience, and obeying the priests of God, deserves well of the Lord by his obedience and his righteous works. [St. Cyprian Epistle 13] 248AD

St. Andrew says that the removal of the lampstand is being deprived from divine grace: "The removal of the candlestick of the Church is the deprivation of Divine Grace, to which she will be subjected in agitation and shaking from the spirits of malice and the evil men who help them.” [St. Andrew of Caesarea] 6th Century

St. Caesarius points out that the lampstand is moved, not taken away: Note that He did not say He ‘takes away’ the lampstand but that He ‘moves.’ For the lampstand signifies the one Christian people. Therefore, He says that this lampstand is to be moved, not taken away, so that we might understand that in the very same Church the evil are moved and the good confirmed. Moreover, He means that by the hidden but nonetheless just judgment of God, that which is taken from the evil is given as increase to the good. This fulfills that which is written, “He who has, it will be added to him, but to him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken from him.(Mt. 25:29)” [St. Caesarius of Arles Commentary on Revelation] 470-543AD
 
Jerome points out that it was actually believer who fell through sin: But they to whom He says: "Remember from whence thou art fallen "; and, "Behold the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried "; and, "I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is "; and, “Remember how thou hast received, and didst hear, and keep it, and repent,” and so on, were of course believers, and baptized, who once stood, but fell through sin. [St. Jerome Against Jovinias Book 2 Verse 3] 347-420AD

**St. Thomas uses this verse to speak out against a false teaching that said that those who already have been baptized cannot receive pardon: **Concerning this Sacrament is the error of the heresy Novation, who say that any one who has sinned after having been baptized cannot receive pardon through the Sacrament of Penance. Against this are the words: “Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen; and do penance, and do the first works.”[St. Thomas Aquinas On the Sacraments] 1225-1274AD

**Tertullian points out that it is God’s will to pardon the penitent: **You have offended, but can still be reconciled. You have One whom you may satisfy, and Him willing. This if you doubt, unravels the meaning of “what the Spirit saith to the churches.” He imputes to the Ephesians “forsaken love;” reproaches the Thyatirenes with “fornication,” and “eating of things sacrificed to idols;” accuses the Sardians of "works not full; " censures the Pergamenes for teaching perverse things; upbraids the Laodiceans for trusting to their riches; and yet gives them all general monitions to repentance–under comminations, it is true; but He would not utter comminations to one un-repentant if He did not forgive the repentant. [Tertullian On repentance Chapter7-8] 155-250AD
 
tobinatorstark said:
Here is a correct version of what Rev 2:5 should be

5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

We are to do penance not just repent, do penance!!!

A small excerpt from the Haydock Bible Commentary

— Do penance…practise the first works, return to thy first fervour, or I will remove thy candlestick out of its place. The church of Ephesus is threatened, as in danger to lose its faith, which faith should be transplanted and received in other places. It is what God has divers times permitted, that churches flourishing in the profession of the true Christian faith should be perverted by infidelity and heresy, while the faith hath been planted in other kingdoms of the world. I need not bring instances, where candlesticks have been removed out of their places. (Witham) —

Why must Catholics insist on using Protestant and incorrect Bibles???
Click to expand...
Ok, thank you~

Sorry I used the KJV - It’s what automatically comes up when I use this Biblegateway thingy. Regardless though, the meaning is not lost (at least, not in regard to my question)…

In reply to your answer specifically, if they are losing faith, then what faith is to be transplanted elsewhere?
 
Thank you, Copland~

That is about what I supposed it meant. Although there is a little diversity amongst the ECF, it essentially means the same thing.

Here’s the problem:

One of the elders of the Mennonite congregation I was affiliated with has brought this scripture up as a refutation of the claim that the Catholic church is protected from error. His point is that if it was protected from error, there would be no need to remove the candlestick.

For instance, I have heard it said that even if a priest is living a very sinful life and the members of the church are lukewarm (or worse) that the mass is still the mass and communion is still valid. But this Scripture seems to say this is not the case.

What would you say?
 
IOW, how would one know if the church they were in had it’s candlestick removed? How would one judge such a thing?
 
JoyToBeCatholic said:
Ok, thank you~

Sorry I used the KJV - It’s what automatically comes up when I use this Biblegateway thingy. Regardless though, the meaning is not lost (at least, not in regard to my question)…

In reply to your answer specifically, if they are losing faith, then what faith is to be transplanted elsewhere?
Click to expand...
www.drbo.org
www.catholicfirst.com
www.usccb.org
geocities.com/sacra_scriptura/eng_bible_index.html
vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/index.html
newadvent.org/bible/index.html
cormacburke.or.ke/book/knox_bible

these are some reliable Catholic resources to quoting scripture from approved Catholic Bibles
 
JoyToBeCatholic said:
Thank you, Copland~

That is about what I supposed it meant. Although there is a little diversity amongst the ECF, it essentially means the same thing.

Here’s the problem:

One of the elders of the Mennonite congregation I was affiliated with has brought this scripture up as a refutation of the claim that the Catholic church is protected from error. His point is that if it was protected from error, there would be no need to remove the candlestick.

For instance, I have heard it said that even if a priest is living a very sinful life and the members of the church are lukewarm (or worse) that the mass is still the mass and communion is still valid. But this Scripture seems to say this is not the case.

What would you say?
Click to expand...
First of all, I would never think of refuting Church Doctrine over one passage of Scripture because I know that my interpretation of it is flawed if it in any way conflicts with what the Church teaches.

But to understand what the Church teaches concerning the validity of Mass, Augustine defended it very well when he wrote against the Donatists. They tried a similar arguement in the early Church. newadvent.org/fathers/1408.htm
 
COPLAND_3 said:
First of all, I would never think of refuting Church Doctrine over one passage of Scripture because I know that my interpretation of it is flawed if it in any way conflicts with what the Church teaches.
Click to expand...
Right, but apparently this man has no problem with doing so. He gives no consideration to anything I present him with. I think I’ve done fairly well in explaining the Catholic faith to him, but this was one thing I wasn’t sure how to answer.
But to understand what the Church teaches concerning the validity of Mass, Augustine defended it very well when he wrote against the Donatists. They tried a similar arguement in the early Church. newadvent.org/fathers/1408.htm
Click to expand...
That’s a big read. I’ll take a look throughout the day and post my thoughts.

Thanks~
 
JoyToBeCatholic said:
Right, but apparently this man has no problem with doing so. He gives no consideration to anything I present him with. I think I’ve done fairly well in explaining the Catholic faith to him, but this was one thing I wasn’t sure how to answer. That’s a big read. I’ll take a look throughout the day and post my thoughts.

Thanks~
Click to expand...
You are right, that is a big read. But to sum it up Augustine points out that it is God who does the work through man, not the sanctity of the man or the people. That is why an atheist can even Baptize someone, because it is the Holy Spirit that does the cleansing and has nothing to do with how holy a person is who does the Baptism.

But I just noticed in your other post that you also mention refutation of the claim that the Catholic church is protected from error. The fact that the Church teaches without error has nothing to do with teaching in local manner, it has to do with Church Dogma. scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#92

I think the one you are talking about has a misunderstanding about what the Church teaches about infallability of Church teachings.
 
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