Rev 5:8 and 8:5

[Elzee]

I’ve often heard Rev 5.8 and 8:5 as the scriptural basis for the communion of saints who are able to pray for us in heaven, and I’d like to use these examples when discussing this with a fundamentalist friend of mine, but I don’t understand it!

An excerpt from a CA article reads: "…*Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” *

I just can’t grasp this passage! How does this tell us that the ‘prayers being offered up’ are from earth? Does the last use of the word ‘saints’ correspond to ‘people on earth’? How do we know that? Some translations I’ve seen use the term ‘holy ones’ instead of ‘saints’ at the end of that verse. Does that make a difference?
I’d appreciate any help you all could give me! Thank you!

 

[Salmon]

Elzee:

Does the last use of the word ‘saints’ correspond to ‘people on earth’? How do we know that?

How is “saints” used in the New Testament?

It can refer to those who sleep in Christ:
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

or, more frequently, to those alive in faith:
Acts 9:32
And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Acts 9:41
And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Romans 12:13
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Romans 15:25
But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Romans 16:15
Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

1 Corinthians 16:1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Corinthians 8:4
Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2 Corinthians 9:1
For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

2 Corinthians 9:12
For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

2 Corinthians 13:13
All the saints salute you.

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

There are a boatload more citations, but that should make it clear.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[Della]

Elzee:

I’ve often heard Rev 5.8 and 8:5 as the scriptural basis for the communion of saints who are able to pray for us in heaven, and I’d like to use these examples when discussing this with a fundamentalist friend of mine, but I don’t understand it!

An excerpt from a CA article reads: "…*Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” *

I just can’t grasp this passage! How does this tell us that the ‘prayers being offered up’ are from earth? Does the last use of the word ‘saints’ correspond to ‘people on earth’? How do we know that? Some translations I’ve seen use the term ‘holy ones’ instead of ‘saints’ at the end of that verse. Does that make a difference?
I’d appreciate any help you all could give me! Thank you!

The word saint only means “holy one”, so there is no difficulty there.

The prayers of the saints means the prayers of the holy ones in heaven as well as on earth, for the Body of Christ is not divided by death but is one in Christ. The Church in heaven is called the Church Triumphant while the Church on earth is called the Church Militant (because it is still “fighting the good fight”), but both are one and the same Church.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi!

Perhaps a slightly different view would help:

Lets suppose for a moment that the prayers being offered as incense are ONLY those of the ‘saints’ in heaven. (This is only partially correct, see Della’s comment).

Even in this case, you have prayers (which rise like incense) being offered by angels (REV 8:3-5).

So, there is an intercessor (the angel) to God. Even in the case of assuming the saints are only in heaven, prayers are offered indirectly to God through the aid of another.

That alone would show the communion of saints.

In Rev 5:8 the angel is replaced by elders. Protestants will probably recognize an ‘elder’ as a church official, but not as a priest.
However, the 24 elders are priests for they offer incense. The offering of incense on Golden objects (altar) is a practice commanded by God for the Old Testament tabernacle/Temple to be carried out by specific kinds of priests.

Exodus 30: 1-? (The building of the altar of incense).

The Temple (also called the tabernacle) with its altar was a copy of the divine liturgy going on in heaven which you are reading about in revelation.

The number 24 for elders is symbolic. One way of looking at it is the old Jerusalem + the new (us). 12 tribes of Israel + 12 Apostles. That helps a little in showing that the heavenly liturgy in Revelation encompasses the new testament as well.

The verse that follows in Revelations 5:

… for you were slain and by your blood did ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.

Every nation/people on earth are priests to God - on earth.

Now, the important thing is that the elders and angels are offering other people’s prayers to God in heaven, and there is something on earth just like that.

In the mass, the priest says something like: ‘may your angel take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven that …’

So, the sacrifice of the mass includes the prayers of the people on the altar of incense. In the old testament, this was shown by the priest of Aaron’s line (high priestly line) burning incense on the altar while the people prayed outside.

A good example of this is John the baptist’s father:
Lk. 1:8-10