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Matthias123
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– Apocalypse of St. John
Why is Mary having labor pains in St. John’s vision? I thought she didn’t have labor pains.
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Why is Mary having labor pains in St. John’s vision? I thought she didn’t have labor pains.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Look to the words of Simeon in today’s Gospel reading. “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”– Apocalypse of St. John
Why is Mary having labor pains in St. John’s vision? I thought she didn’t have labor pains.
Mary suffers labor pains every time the Church is persecuted, beginning with Jesus on the Cross. How is this? Continue reading Revelation chapter 12.
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
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Matthias123
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Thank you so much!
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tobinatorstark
Guest
nicely said. Here is the Haydock Bible Commentary to go along with the words you correctly described
Ver. 1. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. — A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary]. The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) — Under the figure of a woman and of a dragon, are represented the various attempts of Satan to undermine the Church. — On her head…twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)
Ver. 2. With child, &c., to signify that the Church, even in the time of persecutions, brought forth children to Christ. (Witham) — It likewise signifies the difficulties which obstructed the first propagation of Christianity. (Pastorini)
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Nita
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I particularly like the connection with Mary in the previous posts. Mary is mother not just of the head (Jesus), but the whole body (Jesus’ mystical body, the Church).
The birth of Jesus (the head) in Bethlehem was painless.
However, it was on Calvary where the graces needed to bring life to the rest of “the body” were brought forth - through Jesus’ passion and death. (The Church fathers often relate the blood and water that flowed from Our Lord’s pierced side as the source of the graces of Baptism and the Eucharist - sacraments that give life to the members of the Church.) For Mary, the “labor pain” must have been tremendous as she watched her Son suffer to bring about life for us.
Nita
The birth of Jesus (the head) in Bethlehem was painless.
However, it was on Calvary where the graces needed to bring life to the rest of “the body” were brought forth - through Jesus’ passion and death. (The Church fathers often relate the blood and water that flowed from Our Lord’s pierced side as the source of the graces of Baptism and the Eucharist - sacraments that give life to the members of the Church.) For Mary, the “labor pain” must have been tremendous as she watched her Son suffer to bring about life for us.
Nita
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NotWorthy
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Yes, but as in regular childbirth, the pain is soon forgotten and replaced with the intense joy of new life!!!
I don’t speak from experience, mind you, I’m just repeating the words of my wife and other mothers.
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Nita
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“Forgotten” might not be quite accurate, but “intense joy” is right on. And I can speak from experience.
Which, thanks to your above post, now makes me think of the intense joy Mary must experience everytime someone dead in sin is brought to life in Our Lord.
Nita
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NotWorthy
Guest
I plead ignorance in this matter (Thank the Lord!!!).“Forgotten” might not be quite accurate, but “intense joy” is right on. And I can speak from experience.
And the choir sings, AMEN!!!
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Also the Scriptures tell us that due to the fall labor pains would increase not that they would begin:
God bless
This tells me there would also be labor pains, but because of the fall they were “greatly multiplied.”
God bless
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COPLAND_3
Guest
Here are a couple of explanations, one from an Early Church Father Oecumenius, and the other from Scott Hahn
**Oecumenius **
Yet Isaiah says about her, ‘before the woman in labor gives birth, and before the toil of labor begins, she fled and brought forth a male child.(Is. 66:7)’ Gregory, also in his commentary on Song of Songs talks of the Lord ‘whose conception is without intercourse, and whose birth is undefiled. (Gregory of Nyssa 13)’ So the birth was free from pain. Therefore, if according to such a great prophet and the teacher of the Church, the Virgin has escaped the pain of childbirth, how does she here ‘cry out in her birth-pangs, in anguish for delivery?’ Does not this contradict what was said? Certainly not. For nothing could be contradictory in the mouth of the one and the same Spirit, who spoke through both. Both in the present passage you should understand ‘the crying out and being in anguish’ in this way; until the divine angel told Joseph about her, that the conception was from the Holy Spirit, the Virgin was naturally despondent, blushing before her betrothed, and thinking that he might somehow suspect that she was in labor from a furtive marriage. Her despondency and grief he called, according to the principles of metaphor, crying and anguish; and this is not surprising. For even when blessed Moses spiritually met God and was losing heart-for he saw Israel in the desert being encircled by the sea and by enemies-God said to him, ‘Why of you cry to me?(Ex. 14:15)’ So also now the vision calls the sorrowful disposition of the Virgin’s mind and heart ‘crying out.’ But you, who took away the despondency of the undefiled handmaid and your human mother, my lady mistress, the holy Mother of God, by your ineffable birth, so away with my sins, too, for to you is due glory for ever. Amen.
Hahn
litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Dr.+Scott+Hahn+Mary+Rev.+12
**Oecumenius **
Yet Isaiah says about her, ‘before the woman in labor gives birth, and before the toil of labor begins, she fled and brought forth a male child.(Is. 66:7)’ Gregory, also in his commentary on Song of Songs talks of the Lord ‘whose conception is without intercourse, and whose birth is undefiled. (Gregory of Nyssa 13)’ So the birth was free from pain. Therefore, if according to such a great prophet and the teacher of the Church, the Virgin has escaped the pain of childbirth, how does she here ‘cry out in her birth-pangs, in anguish for delivery?’ Does not this contradict what was said? Certainly not. For nothing could be contradictory in the mouth of the one and the same Spirit, who spoke through both. Both in the present passage you should understand ‘the crying out and being in anguish’ in this way; until the divine angel told Joseph about her, that the conception was from the Holy Spirit, the Virgin was naturally despondent, blushing before her betrothed, and thinking that he might somehow suspect that she was in labor from a furtive marriage. Her despondency and grief he called, according to the principles of metaphor, crying and anguish; and this is not surprising. For even when blessed Moses spiritually met God and was losing heart-for he saw Israel in the desert being encircled by the sea and by enemies-God said to him, ‘Why of you cry to me?(Ex. 14:15)’ So also now the vision calls the sorrowful disposition of the Virgin’s mind and heart ‘crying out.’ But you, who took away the despondency of the undefiled handmaid and your human mother, my lady mistress, the holy Mother of God, by your ineffable birth, so away with my sins, too, for to you is due glory for ever. Amen.
Hahn
litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Dr.+Scott+Hahn+Mary+Rev.+12
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
The labor pains have happened after the birth of Christ in John’s vision. The pains she was having is exactly a mother watch her son being born into eternity. The pains Mary was having was us being born from her at the foot of the Cross.
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
Christ enabled Mary’s suffering to be fruitful.
Mary gave birth to all of us at the foot of the cross. You know that woman travailing in pangs of birth in the book of Revelation? In the encyclical on the Immaculate Conception the Holy Father says: Quote:
24. Leaving aside charity towards God, who can contemplate the Immaculate Virgin without feeling moved to fulfill that precept which Christ called peculiarly His own, namely that of loving one another as He loved us? “A great sign,” thus the Apostle St. John describes a vision divinely sent him, appears in the heavens: “A woman clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars upon her head” (Apoc. xii., 1). Everyone knows that this woman signified the Virgin Mary, the stainless one who brought forth our Head. The Apostle continues: "And, being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered"yet travailing in a mysterious childbirth. What birth was it? Surely it was the birth of us who, still in exile, are yet to be generated to the perfect charity of God, and to eternal happiness. And the birth pains show the love and desire with which the Virgin from heaven above watches over us, and strives with unwearying prayer to bring about the fulfillment of the number of the elect. (Apoc. xii., 2). John therefore saw the Most Holy Mother of God already in eternal happiness,
In one sentence:
She who gave birth to our Head, Jesus Christ, must, consequently, give birth to the entire body.
Mary gave birth to all of us at the foot of the cross. You know that woman travailing in pangs of birth in the book of Revelation? In the encyclical on the Immaculate Conception the Holy Father says: Quote:
24. Leaving aside charity towards God, who can contemplate the Immaculate Virgin without feeling moved to fulfill that precept which Christ called peculiarly His own, namely that of loving one another as He loved us? “A great sign,” thus the Apostle St. John describes a vision divinely sent him, appears in the heavens: “A woman clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars upon her head” (Apoc. xii., 1). Everyone knows that this woman signified the Virgin Mary, the stainless one who brought forth our Head. The Apostle continues: "And, being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered"yet travailing in a mysterious childbirth. What birth was it? Surely it was the birth of us who, still in exile, are yet to be generated to the perfect charity of God, and to eternal happiness. And the birth pains show the love and desire with which the Virgin from heaven above watches over us, and strives with unwearying prayer to bring about the fulfillment of the number of the elect. (Apoc. xii., 2). John therefore saw the Most Holy Mother of God already in eternal happiness,
In one sentence:
She who gave birth to our Head, Jesus Christ, must, consequently, give birth to the entire body.
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
great, I’m glad everyone agrees.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
I am just glad to see everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut to compare and agree upon.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
– Apocalypse of St. John
Why is Mary having labor pains in St. John’s vision? I thought she didn’t have labor pains.
**Why should it be Mary ? It’s not as likely as that the woman is a community, over against the woman in Rev. 17-18. Traditionally the woman in 12 has been interpreted as the Church, & only secondarily as being Marian. That the woman in 12 is the individual person Mary does not fit the book well, & is open to many objections. **
**That Mary did not suffer labour pains is no more than a pious fancy - it has no doctrinal or theological foundation. It is inherently unlikely in any case - she was not spared other sufferings, so what’s the basis for thinking she was spared this ? If Christ had to suffer, why should she be spared ? He was not too proud to share in the sufferings coomon to all men, but truly suffered - to single her out like this paves the way to unrealism in understanding the Incarnation, the Passion, & human suffering: it paves the way to a sort of Docetism.
**
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NotWorthy
Guest
To me the woman being Mary fits perfectly (besides my obvious biases…). There are three main characters in this scene:
a Dragon, a woman, and a baby.
The Dragon is an individual - Satan.
The Baby is an individual - Jesus
And the woman is what? A group? I don’t think so. The woman should be an individual.
I don’t know. Maybe its just me.
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**That Mary did not suffer labour pains is no more than a pious fancy - it has no doctrinal or theological foundation. It is inherently unlikely in any case - she was not spared other sufferings, so what’s the basis for thinking she was spared this ? If Christ had to suffer, why should she be spared ? He was not too proud to share in the sufferings coomon to all men, but truly suffered - to single her out like this paves the way to unrealism in understanding the Incarnation, the Passion, & human suffering: it paves the way to a sort of Docetism.
In this, your basic assessment is right. Whether Mary suffered or not should be irrelevant to our faith.
But… if Mary was conceived without sin, and the multiplication of labor pains is a punishment that came from “Apple-Gate”, then it would stand to reason that Mary wouldn’t have been wailing in pain as the woman in 12 is.
And whether this kind of reasoning leads to Docetism, … well, that depends on the individual. I haven’t seen a revival of Docetism lately, have you?
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