Reversing the decline in the West

[murphy7patrick]

The big mistake of the Catholic Church has been to organise the structure of its dioceses around national lines, at a time when, in the West, the nation-state is being increasingly irrelevant.

Since the 1950s, most of the countries of the West have moved away from being monocultural states where people of a common ethnicity, culture and religion live. These countries today are now multicultural territories where peoples of diverse backgrounds from across the world come together for mutual economic interest.

Surely now is the time for the Church to adapt? Would it not be better to structure its dioceses around ethnic lines rather than national ones?

This is a time of mass migration and movements of peoples across West. When people emigrate (e.g. as the Irish and Polish have done in huge numbers to the UK over the last forty years) they often find themselves attending a Church surrounded by people they have absolutely nothing ethnically or culturally in common with. The Polish have already adapted to this by organising Mass in Polish, which are well attended by the young and old alike.

Former Cardinal of England and Wales Cormac Murphy-O’Connor has said “I’m quite concerned that Poles are creating a separate Church in Britain – I would want them to be part of the Catholic life of this country. I would hope those responsible for the Polish Church here, and the Poles themselves, will be aware that they should become a part of local parishes as soon as possible when they learn enough of the language.”

Sadly, the Irish in Britain, once famed for their devout Catholicism, have stopped attending Mass. Could this be due to the lack of cultural relevance of the Catholic Church in England and Wales to the Irish community? The Irish (and those of Irish descent) usually live in inner-city multicultural areas. If there were Mass in Gaelic, would it attract lapsed Irish Catholics to return to the Church? Would they look more positively on a Church that paid attention to their cultural needs?

The Church is the institution that should bind a community and look after its pastoral needs. But what is a community in today’s multicultural societies? Is it people of common ethnic background scattered across a city? Or is it the people of diverse backgrounds who live in geographical proximity to one another?

Should it be the ‘Catholic Church of Poland’ and ‘Catholic Church of Ireland’?

Or should it be the ‘Catholic Church of the Polish’ and the ‘Catholic Church of the Irish’?

 

[ProVobis]

You bring up most interesting points. I agree with your assessments. Poles are generally very regular in their Mass attendance. They go to Mass even if they’re divorced and remarried or cohabitating. Confession lines are long and many know when not to receive.

In my early days I lived in a Polish culture in London. This was after the war as my dad, Polish by birth, belonged to a unit which was under British command. We were surrounded by Anglicans but yet managed very well to adapt to the local Catholic Church. In fact, there was quite a diversified bunch in my First Communion pictures.

I doubt if the same thing could be said today. Cultures within the Church have been encouraged with the vernacular liturgy and it has definitely hurt the unity of Catholicism.

 

[Romanova]

Cultures within the Church have been encouraged with the vernacular liturgy and it has definitely hurt the unity of Catholicism.

I don’t think the vernacular liturgy alone did that. It’s a natural tendency of human beings to want to associate themselves into sub-cultures of people who are similar to them – even within a universal Church.

In my hometown, there are two Roman Catholic parishes that sit just two blocks from each other. One was for the Catholics of German descent, who arrived in the area first. A few decades later, the Irish arrived. They felt, shall we say, less than welcomed by the Germans, and they started their own parish. This was all back in the 1800s, when the liturgy was in Latin. The divide in the parishes persisted even when the liturgy changed to English. Finally, in the late 1990s, a new diocesan bishop decided to assign a priest named O’Connor to the traditionally German parish, and a priest named Schmidt to the traditionally Irish one. I think he had hopes that might promote more unity, but it didn’t. To this day, the parishes sit just two blocks apart, and they function completely separately – there are no joint events, no joint outreach, scarcely any acknowledgment by the parishioners of one parish that there is another church two blocks away. (The priests of each parish associate with one another, but the parishioners generally don’t.) It is strange and sad.

All of which is to say, I’m fine with Masses in Polish, Spanish, Vietnamese, Gaelic, what have you. But I’m not sure I’d welcome a lot of parishes set up specifically along ethnic lines.

 

[ProVobis]

All of which is to say, I’m fine with Masses in Polish, Spanish, Vietnamese, Gaelic, what have you. But I’m not sure I’d welcome a lot of parishes set up specifically along ethnic lines.

At this point, I don’t know if it would make much of a difference. There are parishes where its English and Spanish members, for example never see anyone of the other culture(s).

 

[Romanova]

At this point, I don’t know if it would make much of a difference. There are parishes where its English and Spanish members, for example never see anyone of the other culture(s).

Agreed – but setting up separate parishes (rather than various Masses within the same parish community) certainly wouldn’t help that problem.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

I think the so called decline in the West is almost universally to be welcomed. The former “normality” or Christianity in most of Europe and among the European diaspora has been replaced by a “mormal” polity based on a vague, illogical but passingly accepted amalgam of liberal humanism, earth mother worship and a multitude of personal “Jesuses” which are mere transcendentalisations of personal beliefs.

This means Christianity is a choice people make rather than a given. It is a jump away from the easy norm rather than mute unthinking acceptance of an easy norm. It is a counter cultural statement about ourselves and our faith. Whilst the faith is in reality accepted by a tiny persentage of europeans ( the vast majority of cradle catholics are agnostic/deist non attending non believers ) it is not in decline as such. It is actually strong and vibrant among those who accept it.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The big mistake of the Catholic Church has been to organise the structure of its dioceses around national lines, at a time when, in the West, the nation-state is being increasingly irrelevant.

Since the 1950s, most of the countries of the West have moved away from being monocultural states where people of a common ethnicity, culture and religion live. These countries today are now multicultural territories where peoples of diverse backgrounds from across the world come together for mutual economic interest.

Surely now is the time for the Church to adapt? Would it not be better to structure its dioceses around ethnic lines rather than national ones?

This is a time of mass migration and movements of peoples across West. When people emigrate (e.g. as the Irish and Polish have done in huge numbers to the UK over the last forty years) they often find themselves attending a Church surrounded by people they have absolutely nothing ethnically or culturally in common with. The Polish have already adapted to this by organising Mass in Polish, which are well attended by the young and old alike.

Former Cardinal of England and Wales Cormac Murphy-O’Connor has said “I’m quite concerned that Poles are creating a separate Church in Britain – I would want them to be part of the Catholic life of this country. I would hope those responsible for the Polish Church here, and the Poles themselves, will be aware that they should become a part of local parishes as soon as possible when they learn enough of the language.”

Sadly, the Irish in Britain, once famed for their devout Catholicism, have stopped attending Mass. Could this be due to the lack of cultural relevance of the Catholic Church in England and Wales to the Irish community? The Irish (and those of Irish descent) usually live in inner-city multicultural areas. If there were Mass in Gaelic, would it attract lapsed Irish Catholics to return to the Church? Would they look more positively on a Church that paid attention to their cultural needs?

The Church is the institution that should bind a community and look after its pastoral needs. But what is a community in today’s multicultural societies? Is it people of common ethnic background scattered across a city? Or is it the people of diverse backgrounds who live in geographical proximity to one another?

Should it be the ‘Catholic Church of Poland’ and ‘Catholic Church of Ireland’?

Or should it be the ‘Catholic Church of the Polish’ and the ‘Catholic Church of the Irish’?

Thought we already have ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH, do you want to alter that statement? I see every ethnicity in the world in my church every Sunday. We are the Church that is the least splintered, look at the Protestants, every church is stand-alone! “Decline in the West?” Yeah we need revival but not splintering!

 

[Black_Rose]

The evolutionary psychology Kevin MacDonald wrote a trilogy of books about the Jewish group evolutionary strategy. He says that Jews developed and promoted intellectual movements that nurtured a “culture of critique” that were hostile to the institutions of Western civilization and encouraged multiculturalism. The Jews did this because they were ethnocentric (and had antipathy towards the West) and wanted a political and social environment safe for Jews.

youtube.com/watch?v=k9ScVv5PukA (Video 1: Kevin MacDonald Discusses Jewish Influence On Western Culture )
youtube.com/watch?v=ViYuWxMyNMM (Video 2)
youtube.com/watch?v=6jfdF0ALjOw (video 3)
youtube.com/watch?v=ry2tlKG_mSE (video 4)
youtube.com/watch?v=gy3rxvOzA4U (video 5)
youtube.com/watch?v=ifuvKf-mcHw (video 6)

 

[JimG]

As to the matter of ethnic parishes: In my hometown there used to be many ethnic parishes, Polish, Croatian, and many others. But they are gone now; closed or merged and consolidated for lack of parishioners. All the children–the second generation, moved to the suburbs, leaving the parishes pretty bare. Now, however, some of the suburban parishes are having Spanish Masses. And in my current hometown, one parish at least has Masses in English, Latin, Spanish, and Vietnamese.