Revolutionary War: Justified?

[ChibiBarako]

I dont know much about your American Revotution, but something about anti-Catholic Freemasons rebelling against a lawful (albeit protestant) monarchy to create a secular and nationalistic republic just doesnt seem right.

I keep hearing this assertion that the American Revolution was conducted by Freemasons. Do you have any reputable resources – books etc. – to back up this assertion? (The whole thing with the pyramid on the back of the dollar bill being proof of Freemasonry has been disproven by several scholars – including, IIRC, our own Catholic Answers – though I can’t find the article at the moment.)

Sincerely,

Cynthia

 

[system]

Did you read what I posted of what one of your ‘founding fathers’ thought of Catholics and Catholicism?

Hardly pro-Catholic.
…On the other hand, the colonists neither believed in the freedom of religion, nor in the unity of faith that preserved small government in the middle ages. They numbered amongst the “Intolerable Acts”, which Britain had committed, granting the Catholic Church freedom of worship in Quebec. That the American Revolutionaries found this as intolerable as high taxation should be food for thought for any Catholic tempted to revere them. In Connecticut or Massachusetts, Catholicism was illegal until about 1830, the same time that England lifted the restrictions. If you were a Catholic traveling to those states, and it was found out, you would be kicked out, and have a “P” for papist branded on your head. They didn’t like the Society of Friends either, since they branded “Q” for Quaker on their heads as well.

To further illustrate the point, John Adams, one of the founders of American Independence wrote the following to his wife Abigail about a trip to a Catholic Church:

This afternoon, led by curiosity and good company, I
strolled away to mother church, or rather to grandmother
church. I mean the Romish chapel. I heard a good,
short moral essay upon the duty of parents to their children,
founded in justice and charity, to take care of their
interests, temporal and spiritual. This afternoon’s entertainment
was to me most awful and affecting ; the poor
wretches fingering their beads, chanting Latin not a word of
which they understood ; their pater nosters and ave
Marias ; their holy water ; their crossing themselves perpetually;
their bowing to the name of Jesus, whenever
they hear it; their bowings and kneelings and genuflections
before the altar. The dress of the priest was rich
with lace. His pulpit was velvet and gold. The altar-
piece was very rich; little images and crucifixes about;
wax candles lighted up. But how shall I describe the picture
of our Saviour in a frame of marble over the altar,
at full length, upon the cross in the agonies, and the blood
dropping and streaming from his wounds! The music,
consisting of an organ and a choir of singers, went all the
afternoon except sermon time. And the assembly chanted
most sweetly and exquisitely.
Here is everything which can lay hold of the eye, ear,
and imagination — everything which can charm and bewitch
the simple and ignorant. I wonder how Luther
ever broke the spell. Adieu
-John Adams, letter #47 to Abigail
From athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2007/07/american-revolution-in-perspective.html

Thanks for posting this, Catholic Nick. It really sounds like he’s describing “Old Saint Josephs” in Philadelphia. The oldest Catholic church in Philadelphia, founded in 1733. I have been in there and was deeply moved by that painting. (I guess John Adams would call me simple and ignorant and in need of a “Luther”)

As for anti-catholic, the church was and (is) hard to find, you actually have to go down a back alley to find that “popish temple.” It was basically hidden. Catholics made up only 1% of the population of the colonies at that time, with the majority gathered in Philadelphia where William Penn’s experiment of religious tolerance was still holding.

Of course that anti-catholic bias went on (and goes on) Philadelphia’s basilica is basically a fortress.

 

[Kaninchen]

On a lighter note …

George the First was always reckoned
Vile, but viler George the Second;
And what mortal ever heard
Any good of George the Third?
When from earth the Fourth descended
(God be praised!) the Georges ended.

Walter Savage Landor (1775 -1864)

Except for George V and George VI, of course.

 

[JW10631]

Dustin’s Dad…

One more time - I can comment on Christopher Ferrara if I so choose, as well as avoid his writings. It seems you value his point of view. He turns me off.

Again, you bring up the horror of abortion as if our entire government enthusiastically supports it. You know as well as I do that the Supreme Court wrote the worst opinion in its history - penned by an alleged Catholic, Harry Blackmun. Do you really think a monarchy would prevent it? Spain has a monarch and Spain has abortion.

Italy and France, both one-time Catholic nations, permit abortion too.

The “separation of church and state” is an obscure term taught as Constitutional law in law schools when it is **not.

**Abortions took place in the pagan Roman Empire. Abortion is not new and will not end because of a law or a Supreme Court ruling. It will end because people’s hearts and minds will change.

Now, back to the topic-

Great Britian was a latecomer to the Western Hemisphere. Spain, Portugal and France were here before. Britian had no problem attacking Spanish shipping, sponsoring piracy in the form of privateers, killing every Spaniard on Jamaica and taking it for the Union Jack, invading New France and seizing that from the French, and taking Florida in 1762.

Anti-Catholicism in the American colonies, as well as slavery, can be attributed to Britain. They planted it here.

George Washington was a Mason. He was alleged to be an Episcopalian. he fought the French in present day Western Pennsylvania in the French and Indian War. He fought with the French in the War for Independence. Washington accepted help from Spain in the War for Independence, when John Adams didn’t want it. Washington later suppressed the celebration of Guy Fowlkes Day in the United States and told the Holy See that they could appoint bishops anywhere they wanted to in the US.

Yes, there were anti-Catholics in the US then, as there are now. Their anti-Catholicism did not prevent the Catholic Church from becoming established in this country - they could not, as the Church was already in present day Missouri, Texas, the Southwest and California and elsewhere at the time of Independence.

 

[DustinsDad]

…I can comment on Christopher Ferrara if I so choose, as well as avoid his writings. It seems you value his point of view. He turns me off.

Thank you for such a well articulated refutation of his arguments.

…Again, you bring up the horror of abortion as if our entire government enthusiastically supports it.

Doesn’t matter if every individual in government supports it, it’s legality* is the law of the land*. Our country has made the slaughter of the innocent on a scale neverbeforeseen legal…and we act as if it’s the best form of government the world ever produced.

…You know as well as I do that the Supreme Court wrote the worst opinion in its history - penned by an alleged Catholic, Harry Blackmun.

Alleged is the key there - he’s not truly Catholic anymore than Adolf Hitler. But, because of the division of Church and State, the Church could not correct the matter because in our country, religion is only a personal matter and can not enter into the realm of state law.

…Do you really think a monarchy would prevent it?

Any confessionally Catholic state would - monarchy or otherwise. If the state were to recognize the Catholic Church as the One True Church, it’s laws would reflect that.

Spain has a monarch and Spain has abortion.

Sort of…a parlimentary monarchy. I’m not sure what their Constitution (or whatever they call it) confesses the One True Faith or if they too have bought into the complete separation of Church and State like most other Western countries…I’d have to look into that.

But, according to LifeSite news, abortion there is still illegal in most circumstances (should be all), and their 80,000 number (still horrible) pales next to the 1.5 million in this country.

…Italy and France, both one-time Catholic nations, permit abortion too.

Yes, and they’ve both had their “revolutions” too.

…The “separation of church and state” is an obscure term taught as Constitutional law in law schools when it is not.

Doesn’t matter your opinion on this - the separation of Church and state is the reality of the situation is today because that is what the majority want it to be. It’s inevetible given the form of government we have whether it’s explicitly stated in the Constitution or not.

…Abortions took place in the pagan Roman Empire. Abortion is not new and will not end because of a law or a Supreme Court ruling. It will end because people’s hearts and minds will change.

It’s not whether a few abortions “take place”, it’s whether society as a whole condone it’s legality and whether government enforces it’s legality. Sin will always take place - but government protected and socially condoned sin is what we are talking about. It makes it worse when what we are talking about is murder - to the tune of millions upon millions of innocent lives lost…

That being said, the similarity between Pagan Rome and the United States of America are duly noted. I notice you didn’t bring up the Christian Roman Empire in the discussion.

…Now, back to the topic-…

I’m not sure what all these things you throw up have to do with the discussion on whether the Revolutionary War meets the criteria set forth in the Just War teachings of the Catholic Church.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Pius_X]

“Their blood flowed as freely (in proportion to their numbers) to cement the fabric of independence as that of any of their fellow-citizens. They concurred with perhaps greater unanimity than any other body of men in recommending and promoting that government from whose influence America anticipates all the blessings of justice, peace, plenty, good order, and civil and religious liberty.” John Carroll

“I presume that your fellow-citizens will not forget the patriotic part which you took in the accomplishment of their Revolution, and the establishment of your Government, or the important assistance which they received from a nation in which the Roman Catholic faith is professed.” George Washington, President of the United States

newadvent.org/cathen/03381b.htm

 

[JW10631]

Thank you for such a well articulated refutation of his arguments.

Doesn’t matter if every individual in government supports it, it’s legality* is the law of the land*. Our country has made the slaughter of the innocent on a scale neverbeforeseen legal…and we act as if it’s the best form of government the world ever produced.

Alleged is the key there - he’s not truly Catholic anymore than Adolf Hitler. But, because of the division of Church and State, the Church could not correct the matter because in our country, religion is only a personal matter and can not enter into the realm of state law.

Any confessionally Catholic state would - monarchy or otherwise. If the state were to recognize the Catholic Church as the One True Church, it’s laws would reflect that.

Sort of…a parlimentary monarchy. I’m not sure what their Constitution (or whatever they call it) confesses the One True Faith or if they too have bought into the complete separation of Church and State like most other Western countries…I’d have to look into that.

But, according to LifeSite news, abortion there is still illegal in most circumstances (should be all), and their 80,000 number (still horrible) pales next to the 1.5 million in this country.

Yes, and they’ve both had their “revolutions” too.

Doesn’t matter your opinion on this - the separation of Church and state is the reality of the situation is today because that is what the majority want it to be. It’s inevetible given the form of government we have whether it’s explicitly stated in the Constitution or not.

It’s not whether a few abortions “take place”, it’s whether society as a whole condone it’s legality and whether government enforces it’s legality. Sin will always take place - but government protected and socially condoned sin is what we are talking about. It makes it worse when what we are talking about is murder - to the tune of millions upon millions of innocent lives lost…

That being said, the similarity between Pagan Rome and the United States of America are duly noted. I notice you didn’t bring up the Christian Roman Empire in the discussion.

I’m not sure what all these things you throw up have to do with the discussion on whether the Revolutionary War meets the criteria set forth in the Just War teachings of the Catholic Church.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Okay, Dustin’s Dad. I invite you to establish a nation with a Catholic Monarchy and you can crown Christopher Ferrara as King Christoper of All Time. It’s obvious the USA should never have existed and should not exist now.

Later.