Riddle me this, how many copies of Paul's letters to the Romans were there?

[Grateful4mercy]

For the handful of dyed in the wool, bible believing, non-denominationals that think the bible is the center of salvation, please answer this one simple question.

WHO got Paul’s letters? When Paul wrote to Rome, did he send a copy to every church in the known world? When he sent his revealed, inspired word to Timothy, did he make 1000 copies and dispatch them to the 4 corners of the earth? How, then, did anybody get saved for, oh…just for arguments sake lets say 200 years, until somebody that belonged to Timothy’s Dioceses finally brought it to a Council gathering for inclusion in this new book they were assembling? How about all the other writers? Peter? John? Do we have ALL the letters that were written? Surely not! Were all teachings based on ONLY the Gospels and whatever letter that particular church might have in its possession? What kind of crazy church would that be?

Let’s pretend we are there now. You can only pick the letters from ONE author to ONE church. Your entire faith will be constructed on these few, random letters…nothing more. No oral teachings, no comparison to other churches letters, just what you have on-hand. Think it would work?

Or how about this, you only get to argue your doctrine from now on using the Gospel of Luke, and the letters of Peter. Nothing else. Sound logical? Wish you had Sacred Tradition now?

Ok, lets Imagine you lived in the year 400. Somebody has told you that the Council has put together something called a Bible. You are all excited, because you are planning to base your entire salvation on this unread book. Only one problem. You belong to a 50 person church in the middle of the Sahara Desert and the chance of you getting one of the first 100 painstakingly hand-written bibles is exactly ZERO! Several generations will probably pass before your church has a copy of its own. Awww, guess you don’t get saved. Darn.

So either Jesus is the WORST Project Manager in the history of the world, and Christianity just managed to hang on for 400 years out of spite, or Jesus never meant for there to be a Bible AT ALL. I sort of remember him telling the Apostles to PROCLAIM the Gospel in all the world, not become a publisher and write the best selling book of all time.

One last parting thought…do you have every letter ever written to you? Did you throw some of them away? Some maybe burned in a fire? Ever wonder how many letters were LOST in the 300 or so years before the bible was created?

Thank God my salvation is not dependent on one of those lost letters!

God bless.

 

[exoflare]

Silly… everyone knows the real Bible fell from the sky when Jesus was born! He read from it to his disciples and taught them how to be Christians from reading the Bible. Later on they gave it to Paul when he converted, and that’s where he copied the letters to write to everyone.

 

[The_Truthinator]

Silly… everyone knows the real Bible fell from the sky when Jesus was born! He read from it to his disciples and taught them how to be Christians from reading the Bible. Later on they gave it to Paul when he converted, and that’s where he copied the letters to write to everyone.

I agree, and thus this article is invalid, as it is based on a faulty presupposition: *The Bible has not always been around. *

After all, without the Bible, what did the ancient Israelites do in their spare time? The answer is obvious: they shared various New Testament passages with each other and built their neighbors up in faith with these!

Such ignorance concerning such a simple topic … Tsk, tsk.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Silly… everyone knows the real Bible fell from the sky when Jesus was born! He read from it to his disciples and taught them how to be Christians from reading the Bible. Later on they gave it to Paul when he converted, and that’s where he copied the letters to write to everyone.

No you’re wrong. The Muslims have this one covered. God gave Jesus the Qur’an. He read from it and taught from it. When Jesus died Paul, Peter and the rests destroyed Jesus’s copy of the Qur’an. Then they wrote the fake NT. Didn’t you get the memo on this one?

One thing that amuses me about this Claim of Muslims is since the Qur’an is said to have always existed in heaven and was given to both Moses and Jesus… why does it read like it was written 700 years after the death of Jesus? And why was it written in Arabic? A language that neither Moses nor Jesus spoke.

Oh well, I could not resis… back on topic now.

The OP has a very good point, One that I’ve wondered about at times. Even the OT was not recorded for a very long time hundreds of years at least. It was all an oral tradition.

 

[The_Truthinator]

For instance, whoever utilized the Creation Mythos from Genesis used ancient Tradition to do so. What’s more, most modern scholars agree that a great deal of Torah wasn’t composed by Moses, only fragments and parts were, and these were passed down and later added to and revised in the post-exilic period. That means that the ancient people didn’t even have the whole of Torah … perhaps just parts … just seemingly random laws and stories.

Likewise, there is a reason that Paul tells many churches to stick to his Apostolic traditions and teachings: they were the media through which God, at the time, communicated his message.

Today the Bible is taught through skits involving the people in preliterate areas acting out stories and scenes. They become bedtime stories, and in these areas, oral Tradition is still the primary mode by which the Gospel is shared.

Furthermore, my guitar teacher once relayed to me a story about a visit to African on a mission trip, in which he encountered many Pentecostal missionaries. Well, in the midst of a formerly cannibalistic tribe, the leader of said tribe stood one time before the congregation and began speaking in tongues, and IMMEDIATELY another tribal member stood and began interpreting. This form of direct revelation was a way in which God communicated his Will to a people who had no other way to know it. (He also mentioned he couldn’t take the Pentecostals seriously at all after experiencing the real deal.)

Once more I say it: The Word is our Faith’s basis, both the written Word and the spoken Word.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

I had a feeling I wouldn’t get the response I was hoping for. I should have titled the thread " Our Holy Mother Mary said Paul didn’t write enough letters" or something to draw them in

 

[Grateful4mercy]

For instance, whoever utilized the Creation Mythos from Genesis used ancient Tradition to do so. What’s more, most modern scholars agree that a great deal of Torah wasn’t composed by Moses, only fragments and parts were, and these were passed down and later added to and revised in the post-exilic period. That means that the ancient people didn’t even have the whole of Torah … perhaps just parts … just seemingly random laws and stories.

Likewise, there is a reason that Paul tells many churches to stick to his Apostolic traditions and teachings: they were the media through which God, at the time, communicated his message.

Today the Bible is taught through skits involving the people in preliterate areas acting out stories and scenes. They become bedtime stories, and in these areas, oral Tradition is still the primary mode by which the Gospel is shared.

Furthermore, my guitar teacher once relayed to me a story about a visit to African on a mission trip, in which he encountered many Pentecostal missionaries. Well, in the midst of a formerly cannibalistic tribe, the leader of said tribe stood one time before the congregation and began speaking in tongues, and IMMEDIATELY another tribal member stood and began interpreting. This form of direct revelation was a way in which God communicated his Will to a people who had no other way to know it. (He also mentioned he couldn’t take the Pentecostals seriously at all after experiencing the real deal.)

Once more I say it: The Word is our Faith’s basis, both the written Word and the spoken Word.

I do believe we Catholics are starting to rub off on you, Mr. Nator. You are beginning to sound like one of us

OH, and to the honest-to-God speaking in tongues! That would truly freak me OUT!

 

[Kitty_Chan]

an attempt to grasp this thread, leaving out possible bear traps

There is oral tradition, true enough. But maybe there was no written traditon because there was not much paper and bic pens laying around? gotta remember that at least too. They didnt eat popsicles either.

and possibly the Jewish folk on the boards could back this up but they did write out the Torah. And when the dead sea scrolls were found, it was found accurate. There is a tradition of exact copy techniques that were used, probably to today.

The technology wasnt around for copies, and people could not read or write anyway. But I notice Jesus had a mix of followers so both methods could be employed.

If this thread is a attempt to goad protestants into admiting the bible is sola scripture this isnt the way to do it. Im fine with what the good people at Nicene or wherever it was settled on the books of the bible, That make everyone happy?

Im gonna be honest here, a reason for people to state “Im just going on the bible alone” is because they are tired of argueing about dogmas, and traditions and whos first, they just want to talk about God Himself. Its a longing to be close to God, not a insult to anyone really.

Can a person actually say “well Im just gonna go directly back to the bible and not go through interpertations” no they cant, because the whole thing oral and written is someones interpertation and inspired by God.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

an attempt to grasp this thread, leaving out possible bear traps

There is oral tradition, true enough. But maybe there was no written traditon because there was not much paper and bic pens laying around? gotta remember that at least too. They didnt eat popsicles either.

and possibly the Jewish folk on the boards could back this up but they did write out the Torah. And when the dead sea scrolls were found, it was found accurate. There is a tradition of exact copy techniques that were used, probably to today.

The technology wasnt around for copies, and people could not read or write anyway. But I notice Jesus had a mix of followers so both methods could be employed.

If this thread is a attempt to goad protestants into admiting the bible is sola scripture this isnt the way to do it. Im fine with what the good people at Nicene or wherever it was settled on the books of the bible, That make everyone happy?

Im gonna be honest here, a reason for people to state “Im just going on the bible alone” is because they are tired of argueing about dogmas, and traditions and whos first, they just want to talk about God Himself. Its a longing to be close to God, not a insult to anyone really.

Can a person actually say “well Im just gonna go directly back to the bible and not go through interpertations” no they cant, because the whole thing oral and written is someones interpertation and inspired by God.

Hmmm. After reading it as a stand-alone thread it does sort of look like a tiger trap

This sprung out of a handful of threads that are being ripped apart by a few, rabid…uh…let’s just say they don’t like my church much and leave it at that. Anyway, they are trying to use the epistles as proof that the CC is anti-Christ (not THE Antichrist, they are being careful about how they word it) and it occurred to me that they are operating outside of history in order to do it. They are taking individual letters to different churches or bishops and applying them to the entire Church evenly across time, both forward and backward. As if when Paul wrote a letter it somehow traveled thru time and space and affected the past. And it also managed to get to churches 1000s of miles apart simultaneously and instantly.

It’s all a fairytale, but their entire doctrine depends on it.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

their doctrine? is it the sola bit? btw not catholic but with you on this totally. I read a interesting book by Rick Bell called Velvet Elvis. He was a mega church pastor that stepped down. He has a interesting view and some of it was what I just posted. You cannot “get back to the bible” because its a interpertation of someone somewhere.

Anyway, you may enjoy it, didnt seem anti catholic ( but he thinks we are all heading for one church, dont quote me there, I have to read it again). But he had alot of challanging thoughts, which I always like. He even said not to believe him and check what he says out, and that I like more, I had a baptist pastor that said that.

As for what you describe, about the group, I have a headache already. If they would get off the anti kick they may see, some truths there, do you have any WD-40?

 

[Grateful4mercy]

their doctrine? is it the sola bit? btw not catholic but with you on this totally. I read a interesting book by Rick Bell called Velvet Elvis. He was a mega church pastor that stepped down. He has a interesting view and some of it was what I just posted. You cannot “get back to the bible” because its a interpertation of someone somewhere.

Anyway, you may enjoy it, didnt seem anti catholic ( but he thinks we are all heading for one church, dont quote me there, I have to read it again). But he had alot of challanging thoughts, which I always like. He even said not to believe him and check what he says out, and that I like more, I had a baptist pastor that said that.

As for what you describe, about the group, I have a headache already. If they would get off the anti kick they may see, some truths there, do you have any WD-40?

They are sola on steroids

Rick Bell…I’ve heard that name before. Back in my wondering years I attended quite a few ‘revivals’ I bet I saw him once. (Yes, I even felt compelled to answer to an alter call I’m a BORN-AGAIN CATHOLIC, by the Grace of GOD :extrahappy: )

I thought Windex was the cure for headaches

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Interesting, he said he stepped down from his mega church. Now, im curious, ya gotta at least peek maybe hes changing his mind somehow?? could be good or bad?? Maybe hes a nut that has some truths, Im still checking him out

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Interesting, he said he stepped down from his mega church. Now, im curious, ya gotta at least peek maybe hes changing his mind somehow?? could be good or bad?? Maybe hes a nut that has some truths, Im still checking him out

Ahhh…Rob Bell. Him I don’t know

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Bell

Sounds a little fringe, but he has some interesting points about Eastern Mysticism, at least in Wikipedia.