Roman Catholics who privately use and study Eastern Catholic devotions

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Mort_Alz

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The primary subject of this thread is about Eastern Catholic devotions, so that is why I posted it here.

However, my main question is are there any Roman Catholics (particularly those who appreciate the traditional Latin Mass) who pray and study the Jesus Prayer? Including the eastern methodology of praying it? The catechism has at least a paragraph about it (and, if you read the original catechism, you get the Latin translation of the prayer).

If so, is this the only aspect of your spirituality that is distinctly eastern in character?

I myself go through periods where I use the Jesus Prayer even though I am very western (or Latin) in my theological thinking. I tend to think Thomistically. But, I am far from a dedicated devotee of the Jesus Prayer. I haven’t really studied Hesychasm because it strikes me as something a layman wouldn’t ordinarily have time to do amid his/her more earthly obligations. I also don’t think I would be able to practice it and the Rosary which I always admittedly feel pressure to make effort to do being a “western.” Are there any of you who tend to think more eastern in theology, but are Roman by your community? (Go to a Roman Mass, etc?) Have you ever considered changing rites? What would cause you to want to change rites?

Conversely, I am aware of many Eastern Catholics who pray the Rosary, or who might have a devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe (a “western” devotion) and the Sacred Heart because of their geographical location, but I am also aware of some who tend to be a little more purist even in their private devotions. I had a friend once, a convert, who became so increasingly purist that he was practically Orthodox in his thinking and critical not only of Latin Catholicism, but started labeling things that were vital to Catholic faith as being peculiarly “Latin” and rejected them. He might as well have just been Orthodox and even expressed occasional thoughts of doing just that. Ha, he was even more polemical against certain Roman beliefs that he rivaled some of the Orthodox attitudes about them.

Ooooh, boy, I’m digressing.

Personally, although I like and respect Thomism as a very solid way of holding theology in your mind, I very often employ Eastern conceptions of heaven, hell, the afterlife, and sin when thinking about my own spiritual life and especially in apologetics with non-Catholics. I get the impression that Thomism (and even Roman Catholic theology generally) is more designed to define and defend the faith than to provide a framework for how to move forward with one’s own spirituality. Yet, there are some very valuable books of mysticism from the Medieval period that are very heavily Thomistic, but also work very well to incorporate into one’s own spiritual life. The Imitation of Christ, the Spiritual Combat, Dark Night of the Soul, the Interior Castle, just to name a few. But, I find the Western “Act of Contrition” and rigid framework for how to examine one’s conscience to be a stumbling block to me. For me, they create a mindset in me that would cause me to rarely ever leave the confessional! Some of the western mystical books provide effective counter-balances to this, but I digress…

Are there any Eastern Catholics who are definitely eastern in character, but who might make use from time to time of more Thomistic thinking? Or who heavily meditate on the Rosary?
 
I did not read the whole post…tis rather long and I must be about my tasks.

But yes Roman Catholics can use and study Eastern Catholic devotions - we are of the same Catholic Church.

As to the Jesus Prayer - yes that is used through out the Catholic Church - not just in the Eastern Churches. It has a place too in the universal Catechism of the whole Church. I would caution though regarding some aspect of various practices that have been attached to it in certain places and times (a director can be called for) but the general use - yes is good and fine.

Now could there be some devotion that is only for a Particular Church? Not sure about this - but I rather doubt it.

And of course Christians of the Eastern Catholic Churches would be keen to keep their identity as such - and Christians of the Roman Church too would be keen to keep their identity as such - but such does not mean not being enriched by devotions commonly in use in other parts of the Catholic Church.
 
As grace moves me I have a chotki and with my mind in my heart say the Jesus Prayer.
I am particularly inspired by the wrings of St. Theophan the Recluse and St. Seraphim of Sarov. I use the Philokalia as the Holy Spirit moves me.

I am a traditional catholic attending both forms of the mass without qualm. I keep the hours.

Be not afraid.

Peace
 
My family left the church when I was a child. I was never able to reconcile/revert. I married an EC and transferred rites. I have kept my western prayers, they are imbedded in my heart, soul, and mind. Yet I prefer an Eastern spirituality. The Philokalia, yes, I read about both Eastern and Western saints ( there was a time when they were just saints, no distinction).
 
Nobody should feel bad about picking his own kinds of devotion, as long as they are approved. If you want to stick with your own branch of Church tradition, that is fine, and same thing if you don’t. Private devotions are supposed to be personal.

The saints and Mary belong to everyone. And frankly, there is something very Eastern about a Marian appearance and a miraculous icon cloak not painted by human hands… so I would expect a lot of Eastern devotion to Our Lady of Guadelupe.
 
The Pastor at my Byzantine Parish recommended that I read The Way of a Pilgrim to help me advance in my spiritual life and it was one of the best books I’ve read in a while. I love the Jesus Prayer and using a Chotki. I am also a big fan of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos as prayed by Saint Seraphim of Sarov. It is similar to the Rosary but I certainly would not call it the Eastern or Byzantine Rosary as some might.

FWIW, I’ve actually moved away from regular practice of many Roman/Latin Church devotions in recent times in favor of greater involvement in the daily liturgical practices of the Byzantine Church. In my experience most Roman Catholics only commonly engage in liturgy through the Mass, Eucharistic liturgy and Eucharistic liturgy only. I think this is unfortunate because there is so much more to experience and learn from to further enhance your faith through the common liturgical practices of the Catholic Church that I’ve seen the Eastern Churches more regularly engage in. I would go so far to say that most Roman Catholics would favor private devotions such as the Rosary over liturgical practices aside from the Mass.
Mintaka said:
The saints and Mary belong to everyone. And frankly, there is something very Eastern about a Marian appearance and a miraculous icon cloak not painted by human hands… so I would expect a lot of Eastern devotion to Our Lady of Guadelupe.
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Yes, many Eastern Catholics have a great devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe or should I say The Most Holy Theotokos of Guadalupe 🙂 This apparition of Mary truly represents her as the Theotokos in a most profound way. I know my Byzantine Parish has plans to build a Shrine to the Virgin of Guadalupe in the future.
 
Kenny_Kamel said:
The Pastor at my Byzantine Parish recommended that I read The Way of a Pilgrim to help me advance in my spiritual life and it was one of the best books I’ve read in a while. I love the Jesus Prayer and using a Chotki. I am also a big fan of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos as prayed by Saint Seraphim of Sarov. It is similar to the Rosary but I certainly would not call it the Eastern or Byzantine Rosary as some might.

FWIW, I’ve actually moved away from regular practice of many Roman/Latin Church devotions in recent times in favor of greater involvement in the daily liturgical practices of the Byzantine Church. In my experience most Roman Catholics only commonly engage in liturgy through the Mass, Eucharistic liturgy and Eucharistic liturgy only. I think this is unfortunate because there is so much more to experience and learn from to further enhance your faith through the common liturgical practices of the Catholic Church that I’ve seen the Eastern Churches more regularly engage in. I would go so far to say that most Roman Catholics would favor private devotions such as the Rosary over liturgical practices aside from the Mass.
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It’s interesting that I came across this thread and this post specifically. I pray the Jesus prayer rather frequently, though it was not until recently that I knew that it had any greater devotion among easterners, and I still have very little to no understanding of Hesychastic theology. I just knew that as Christians we are supposed to pray unceasingly.

But the real interesting thing is that just yesterday I met an orthodox guy in one of my classes, and he had his chotki on him. The conversation really started because I mistook it for a rosary. I had heard of a chotki, but hadn’t really any good understanding of what it was. He also called it a Komboskini, which confused me even more, because I had never heard that term. He actually brought up The Way of a Pilgrim, and even offered to lend me his copy.

By “liturgical practices outside the mass” do you mean the the liturgy of the hours? Or is there another form of liturgy you mean? Is praying the hours more common in the east?
 
Col103 said:
It’s interesting that I came across this thread and this post specifically. I pray the Jesus prayer rather frequently, though it was not until recently that I knew that it had any greater devotion among easterners, and I still have very little to no understanding of Hesychastic theology. I just knew that as Christians we are supposed to pray unceasingly.

But the real interesting thing is that just yesterday I met an orthodox guy in one of my classes, and he had his chotki on him. The conversation really started because I mistook it for a rosary. I had heard of a chotki, but hadn’t really any good understanding of what it was. He also called it a Komboskini, which confused me even more, because I had never heard that term. He actually brought up The Way of a Pilgrim, and even offered to lend me his copy.

By “liturgical practices outside the mass” do you mean the the liturgy of the hours? Or is there another form of liturgy you mean? Is praying the hours more common in the east?
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Chotki is prayer rope in Russian. Komboskini is the same but in Greek (in case you didn’t know yet).

And yes, he is definitely referring to the Liturgy of the Hours. Vespers and Matins are very common in the eastern churches. Most churches have every week vespers Saturday evening and matins Sunday morning prior to the Sunday Liturgy (the vespers and matins sort of serve as a form of preparation for the Sunday liturgy). In the Russian tradition, the vespers and matins is combined into a single vigil service on Saturday evening which leads way to Sunday liturgy (which my church does every week). On top of that many churches commonly have matins prior to a weekday liturgy, and vespers is also common in the weekday evenings (my church does it every Friday).

In my parish, almost everybody goes to vigil on Sat. It’s not seen as an “extra” service in the week that only some go to, but an integral part of Sunday worship since the canons/troparia/hymns in vespers and matins is in anticipation of that Sunday Liturgy.

And for Feast Days outside of Sunday, (at least for my church) they always have vespers+matins+ liturgy (again being part of the same cycle of a liturgical day). So yes, the Eastern Churches do the Liturgy of the Hours much more than in the West.

I’ve heard the West also used to do the Liturgy of the Hours more often in the past similar to the East but it died out in practice outside of monasteries, but I don’t have a citation for that (so idk if that’s true).
 
Just to clarify, was referring to is the fact that in the Western/Roman Rite Church they celebrate Eucharistic Liturgy literally every single day of the year aside from Good Friday, though a communion service is still a common practice on Good Friday. There is no sense of engaging in anything else aside from popular devotions like the Rosary or perhaps attending Eucharistic adoration.

Some people practice the Liturgy of the Hours as a private devotion (in a sense) and it is rare to find any church offering Vespers, Compline, etc. It seems to me that many Roman Catholics view praying the Rosary as being the most important thing to engage in on a daily basis second only to attending Mass. I have seen the Rosary become a more common practice in public groups versus non-Eucharistic Liturgy simply due to its popularity among Roman Catholics.
 
Kenny_Kamel said:
The Pastor at my Byzantine Parish recommended that I read The Way of a Pilgrim to help me advance in my spiritual life and it was one of the best books I’ve read in a while. I love the Jesus Prayer and using a Chotki. I am also a big fan of the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos as prayed by Saint Seraphim of Sarov. It is similar to the Rosary but I certainly would not call it the Eastern or Byzantine Rosary as some might.

FWIW, I’ve actually moved away from regular practice of many Roman/Latin Church devotions in recent times in favor of greater involvement in the daily liturgical practices of the Byzantine Church. In my experience most Roman Catholics only commonly engage in liturgy through the Mass, Eucharistic liturgy and Eucharistic liturgy only. I think this is unfortunate because there is so much more to experience and learn from to further enhance your faith through the common liturgical practices of the Catholic Church that I’ve seen the Eastern Churches more regularly engage in. I would go so far to say that most Roman Catholics would favor private devotions such as the Rosary over liturgical practices aside from the Mass.

Yes, many Eastern Catholics have a great devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe or should I say The Most Holy Theotokos of Guadalupe 🙂 This apparition of Mary truly represents her as the Theotokos iccn a most profound way. I know my Byzantine Parish has plans to build a Shrine to the Virgin of Guadalupe in the future.
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The Russian Orthodox church I attended for a time called Gaudalupe Theotokos Our lady of Tepeyak.
 
I know of someone who refers to the Blessed Virgin as Panagia Immaculata in the spirit of eventual unification of the Church.

Would the Orthodox Church have a problem with “appropriating” their title for Mary?
 
I spend quite a bit of time using and praying the prayer rope for the Jesus prayer. I find it a very helpful and calming tool to my mind and soul in addition to the prayer of the rosary. There are many wonderful books that I have found helpful to my use of the prayer rope including “A Night in the Desert of a Holy Mountain” about a discussion with a monk of Mount Athos about the Jesus prayer and hesychasm.
 
I’m an Eastern Catholic who practices some Latin devotions. One thing in particular is Adoration. And Novenas.
 
Mort_Alz said:
The primary subject of this thread is about Eastern Catholic devotions, so that is why I posted it here.

However, my main question is are there any Roman Catholics (particularly those who appreciate the traditional Latin Mass) who pray and study the Jesus Prayer? Including the eastern methodology of praying it? The catechism has at least a paragraph about it (and, if you read the original catechism, you get the Latin translation of the prayer).

If so, is this the only aspect of your spirituality that is distinctly eastern in character?

I myself go through periods where I use the Jesus Prayer even though I am very western (or Latin) in my theological thinking. I tend to think Thomistically. But, I am far from a dedicated devotee of the Jesus Prayer. I haven’t really studied Hesychasm because it strikes me as something a layman wouldn’t ordinarily have time to do amid his/her more earthly obligations. I also don’t think I would be able to practice it and the Rosary which I always admittedly feel pressure to make effort to do being a “western.” Are there any of you who tend to think more eastern in theology, but are Roman by your community? (Go to a Roman Mass, etc?) Have you ever considered changing rites? What would cause you to want to change rites?

Conversely, I am aware of many Eastern Catholics who pray the Rosary, or who might have a devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe (a “western” devotion) and the Sacred Heart because of their geographical location, but I am also aware of some who tend to be a little more purist even in their private devotions. I had a friend once, a convert, who became so increasingly purist that he was practically Orthodox in his thinking and critical not only of Latin Catholicism, but started labeling things that were vital to Catholic faith as being peculiarly “Latin” and rejected them. He might as well have just been Orthodox and even expressed occasional thoughts of doing just that. Ha, he was even more polemical against certain Roman beliefs that he rivaled some of the Orthodox attitudes about them.

Ooooh, boy, I’m digressing.

Personally, although I like and respect Thomism as a very solid way of holding theology in your mind, I very often employ Eastern conceptions of heaven, hell, the afterlife, and sin when thinking about my own spiritual life and especially in apologetics with non-Catholics. I get the impression that Thomism (and even Roman Catholic theology generally) is more designed to define and defend the faith than to provide a framework for how to move forward with one’s own spirituality. Yet, there are some very valuable books of mysticism from the Medieval period that are very heavily Thomistic, but also work very well to incorporate into one’s own spiritual life. The Imitation of Christ, the Spiritual Combat, Dark Night of the Soul, the Interior Castle, just to name a few. But, I find the Western “Act of Contrition” and rigid framework for how to examine one’s conscience to be a stumbling block to me. For me, they create a mindset in me that would cause me to rarely ever leave the confessional! Some of the western mystical books provide effective counter-balances to this, but I digress…

Are there any Eastern Catholics who are definitely eastern in character, but who might make use from time to time of more Thomistic thinking? Or who heavily meditate on the Rosary?
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I pray the Jesus prayer as often as I can, I enjoy doing it during a Holy Hour. My great grandfather was a Byzantine Catholic of the Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi (Hora e Arbereshevet - Albanian). So I have a peaked interested in the Byzantine Rite. I am hoping to take on more cultural aspects of the Byzantine church, but it is hard to do here in NY when most Eastern Rite churches are no longer Greek. Plenty of Orthodox churches though… not the same of course.
 
coleycannoli said:
I pray the Jesus prayer as often as I can, I enjoy doing it during a Holy Hour. My great grandfather was a Byzantine Catholic of the Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi (Hora e Arbereshevet - Albanian). So I have a peaked interested in the Byzantine Rite. I am hoping to take on more cultural aspects of the Byzantine church, but it is hard to do here in NY when most Eastern Rite churches are no longer Greek. Plenty of Orthodox churches though… not the same of course.
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So you’re staying away because the Divine Liturgy might be in English? Or, do you mean that the Eastern Catholic Churches near you are not of the Byzantine Churches? (for instance Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Catholic, etc)
I’m confused.
 
JRS_88 said:
So you’re staying away because the Divine Liturgy might be in English? Or, do you mean that the Eastern Catholic Churches near you are not of the Byzantine Churches? (for instance Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Catholic, etc)
I’m confused.
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Oh no, it has nothing to do with language. There are just no churches near me. The one closest to my family will be the Italo-Albanian-Greco Church, part of the Byzantine Rite. So you would be correct on the second question. I believe there is a Ukrainian Catholic within 45 minutes and a Ruthenian about 45 minutes. Sorry if I am confusing, I am still trying to learn this all myself! Thanks!
 
coleycannoli said:
Oh no, it has nothing to do with language. There are just no churches near me. The one closest to my family will be the Italo-Albanian-Greco Church, part of the Byzantine Rite. So you would be correct on the second question. I believe there is a Ukrainian Catholic within 45 minutes and a Ruthenian about 45 minutes. Sorry if I am confusing, I am still trying to learn this all myself! Thanks!
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Oh Ok! No problem.
 
coleycannoli said:
Oh no, it has nothing to do with language. There are just no churches near me. The one closest to my family will be the Italo-Albanian-Greco Church, part of the Byzantine Rite. So you would be correct on the second question. I believe there is a Ukrainian Catholic within 45 minutes and a Ruthenian about 45 minutes. Sorry if I am confusing, I am still trying to learn this all myself! Thanks!
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Not sure if it still exists or if it’d be at all convenient for you, but there was an Italo-Greek mission on Staten Island.
 
Are there any Eastern Catholics who are definitely eastern in character, but who might make use from time to time of more Thomistic thinking? Or who heavily meditate on the Rosary?
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Nope. The integrity and internal consistency of a tradition is often understated. I personally do not see how mixing and matching is good. The only time I have ever used “Thomistic thinking” (i.e. Aristotelian metaphysics and syllogisms in theology) is to refute Thomists.

I do not pray the rosary either - nothing “wrong” with it, but the silent meditative aspect is very strongly a Latin characteristic. The rosary within the context of Latin tradition makes excellent sense. It would be strange to see a Syriac at a Syriac liturgy engaging in a devotion (like a rosary) - if they would like to do something more than participating individually, they could stand at the choir desk and sing the liturgy.

Maronites in general have been attempting this strange orientalization of Latin devotions. I cannot count how many “eastern rosaries” I’ve been gifted (i.e. rosaries tied like prayer ropes) or tis’awiyya (i.e. a novena) is Maronite because it’s in Arabic.
 
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