Romans 7:17 and justification

[thecone137]

with context…

The Conflict of Two Natures

"14For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold (AC)into bondage to sin.

15For what I am doing, (AD)I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

**17So now, (AG)no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. **

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man,

23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?

25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin. "

Could someone explain the plain meaning of this passage as it relates to justification as a sinner? I did read the joint doctrine on justification (article 4.4), so I am aware there seems to be an inclination to sin. When I read this passage however, it does not sound like an “inclination”. It sounds more like the Lutheran view, where we are still full of sin and at the same time washed clean of sin(from baptism). Any insights would be much appreciated.

God bless.

 

[Glorthac]

Let’s say there’s a young man, who is a Christian. He doesn’t want to masterbate, because he knows its a sin, but because his flesh gives too strong of urges to do so, he gives in. In that way, he mentally knows its wrong, but physically he is inclined to do it.

That’s all Paul is saying, we know it’s wrong, but sometimes the physical urge gets the best of us.

As for the term “sin in us”, he uses the term “evil in us” in verse 21, so its not a physical object (there’s no ‘sin gland’! ), rather its just an overabundance of physical needs (e.g. the need to have sex).

Therefore in regards to justification, I would say to Luther, after baptism, all prior sins of action are washed away, as well as original sin, and so, no sins remain, because the “sin in us” isn’t an actual sin, but is just an overabundance of physical needs.

 

[Carlan]

:yup:

Let’s say there’s a young man, who is a Christian. He doesn’t want to masterbate, because he knows its a sin, but because his flesh gives too strong of urges to do so, he gives in. In that way, he mentally knows its wrong, but physically he is inclined to do it.

That’s all Paul is saying, we know it’s wrong, but sometimes the physical urge gets the best of us.

As for the term “sin in us”, he uses the term “evil in us” in verse 21, so its not a physical object (there’s no ‘sin gland’! ), rather its just an overabundance of physical needs (e.g. the need to have sex).

Therefore in regards to justification, I would say to Luther, after baptism, all prior sins of action are washed away, as well as original sin, and so, no sins remain, because the “sin in us” isn’t an actual sin, but is just an overabundance of physical needs.

Yes, The Church says, concupiscence, the tendency toward sin remains. Or, even so, we are still left with a strong desire toward sin.
With Baptism we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are justified giving us the power of sanctifying grace which helps us to grow in the holiness of Jesus Christ, It is a life long process,We have to Sacraments to help us in that process:yup::clapping: Peace, Carlan

 

[jerry_kelso]

The cone137: Romans7:14-25 has nothing to do with Justification.
This is Paul under the Mosaic Law and the Law couldn’t, Save or Justify man.

1. The Law. of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic Law which was Holy and Good and made them live to the Frailty of Man. These scriptures deal with the Frailty of Man under the dispensation of the Mosaic Law.
2. t does not mean we cannot fall into this state because most christians believe they can’t help but sin syndrome. God wants us to be overcomers. If we believe this is our normal state for a new testament believer then we will be inconsistent and defeated more times than not.
   Verse 25 is a misplaced conclusion; the mind, law of sin and the law of sin should be a part of verse 23. The last words should be "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. This leads into chapter 8 which says; there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Verse 2; For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ, Jesus hath made me free from the Law of Sin and Death.
3. In Chapter 7, it was the Law of sin and death that took advantage of the Mosaic Law that caused them to live to the Frailty of Man. In Chapter 8, the Law of the Spirit which is for New Covenant believers has done away with the Law of sin and death so we don’t have to live defeated and inconsistent. So this passage has nothing to do with Justification. God bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[thecone137]

The cone137: Romans7:14-25 has nothing to do with Justification.
This is Paul under the Mosaic Law and the Law couldn’t, Save or Justify man.

1. The Law. of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic Law which was Holy and Good and made them live to the Frailty of Man. These scriptures deal with the Frailty of Man under the dispensation of the Mosaic Law.
2. t does not mean we cannot fall into this state because most christians believe they can’t help but sin syndrome. God wants us to be overcomers. If we believe this is our normal state for a new testament believer then we will be inconsistent and defeated more times than not.
   Verse 25 is a misplaced conclusion; the mind, law of sin and the law of sin should be a part of verse 23. The last words should be "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. This leads into chapter 8 which says; there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Verse 2; For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ, Jesus hath made me free from the Law of Sin and Death.
3. In Chapter 7, it was the Law of sin and death that took advantage of the Mosaic Law that caused them to live to the Frailty of Man. In Chapter 8, the Law of the Spirit which is for New Covenant believers has done away with the Law of sin and death so we don’t have to live defeated and inconsistent. So this passage has nothing to do with Justification. God bless! Jerry Kelso

Reading Chapter 8 starting with the verse you mentioned seems to flow nicely and thus clarify your statement. The only problem is that it’s not listed as part of chapter 8 in my bible(or any I think). Does anyone else agree with his statement?

 

[jerry_kelso]

Reading Chapter 8 starting with the verse you mentioned seems to flow nicely and thus clarify your statement. The only problem is that it’s not listed as part of chapter 8 in my bible(or any I think). Does anyone else agree with his statement?

Thecone137: I clearly wrote from the 1st 2 verses in Romans 8.KJV. I will give it again.
Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Verse 2: For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of Sin and Death. Jerry Kelso

 

[thecone137]

Thecone137: I clearly wrote from the 1st 2 verses in Romans 8.KJV. I will give it again.
Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Verse 2: For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of Sin and Death. Jerry Kelso

Ending chapter 8 where you say it should end is different than where it actually ends. I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, but the first two responses cleared things up for me.

 

[jerry_kelso]

Ending chapter 8 where you say it should end is different than where it actually ends. I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, but the first two responses cleared things up for me.

Thecone137: I’m glad. One more thing; It’s ending Chapter 7 and not chapter 8. God Bless! Jerry kelso

 

[fhansen]

St Paul is explaining concupiscence, our tendency towards sin. The Catechism tells us that man is divided within himself, and unable to triumph over sin. Jesus triumphed over sin, as well as death, and empowers us to be able to win this battle. IOW, man needs God, the indwelling of the HS, in order to be capable of obeying the Law. Man always needed God, but, by rejecting His godhood at the fall, man lost that vital connection. We now have the choice to be reconciled and restored, where God will give us* His* righteousness, as intended all along, writing His laws on our hearts and in our minds as per the New Covenant promise of Jer 31:33, as we turn back to Him. This is a process, a struggle, where man becomes fully just, with God’s help, as his will comes into full alignment with Gods’.

 

[WFS5801]

Therefore in regards to justification, I would say to Luther, after baptism, all prior sins of action are washed away, as well as original sin, and so, no sins remain, because the “sin in us” isn’t an actual sin, but is just an overabundance of physical needs.

You’re describing Luther’s teaching on justification, not the Catholic Church’s teaching on this subject. This is another case where chapters and verses in the Bible work against the correct understanding of passages. So many people think each verse or chapter can stand on its own. Simply not true.

St. Paul’s passage doesn’t end with chapter 7, it continues into chapter 8.

The verses cited in Chapter 7 are referring to men “under the law.” St. Paul is illustrating the necessity of Christ and His sacrifice in regards to our salvation.

[1] There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus,* who walk not according to the flesh.** [2] For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; [4] That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. [5] For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit.

[6] For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. [7] Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. [8] And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God. [9]** But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.** Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification.*

[11] And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [13] For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. [14] For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [15] For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father).

The “bondage” spoken of here is the bondage to sin. If we are Christ’s we can not be sinners – we are no longer under the law so we have no excuse, we now have a higher calling – and the strength of the Holy Spirit to fulfill that calling. We must mortify the “deeds of our flesh” if we want to live.

Of course we still fall (at least most of us do) and that is what the Sacrament of Penance is for. But if we fall into mortal sin (and the sin described in the quote above is definitely mortal sin) then we are spiritually dead and in danger of damnation until we either make a perfect Act of Contrition with the intent of going to Confession, or go to Confession and receive Absolution. We have no license to mortally sin because it is our “fleshly inclination.”