Russian Orthodox/ Catechisms?

[TP2]

Has the Russian Orthodox Church ask for the new Catholic Catechisms from Rome? I heard this from some news source a few years ago but I cannot corraborate it as I do not have any referrences to that. Does anyone here have and if so please tell me or give me a news link that is reliable. My Orthodox Priest friend denies this.

• TP

 

[FrDavidStraut]

Dear TP2,

I think that you have been misinformed and that your Orthodox priest friend is right on this one. No matter how useful the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *is in defining Catholic Doctrine and practice, it would be of little use to the Orthodox except in helping them to understand the Catholic Church better. The Orthodox have their own doctrinal and catechetical Tradition.They certainly aren’t going to start handing out the CCC to the Orthodox Faithful.

Fr David Straut
St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (Russian) Orthodox Church
Rocky Hill, New Jersey
www.saint-elizabeths.org

 

[TP2]

Fr, Straut, that is what I read from some newspaper. It said that an Orthodox Church requested Catechisms from Rome. I may be mistaken. It happens a lot with me. lol… But if the info is out there, I want to know. That’s all.

By the way, how does one become a Canonized Saint in The Orthodox Church? Is that an “Auto-Cephalous” process within one Jurisdiction or does it require a synod of Bishops?

• TP

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Fr, Straut, that is what I read from some newspaper. It said that an Orthodox Church requested Catechisms from Rome. I may be mistaken. It happens a lot with me. lol… But if the info is out there, I want to know. That’s all.

By the way, how does one become a Canonized Saint in The Orthodox Church? Is that an “Auto-Cephalous” process within one Jurisdiction or does it require a synod of Bishops?

• TP

It first requires the acclamation of the Faithful.

 

[TP2]

It first requires the acclamation of the Faithful.

Is that an Infallible Teaching? I mean, if you make known that someone is canonically a Saint in your Church, isn’t that an Infallible pronoucement that states in effect that the person is in heaven? If so, then there is a domino effect with regards to any person(s) making Infallible statements, is there not? I thought The Orthodox Church did not accept Infallible Pronoucements OUTSIDE of the First 7 Councils of The Church?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Is that an Infallible Teaching?

Which, the canonization or the teaching on canonization?

I mean, if you make known that someone is canonically a Saint in your Church, isn’t that an Infallible pronoucement that states in effect that the person is in heaven?

Yes.

If so, then there is a domino effect with regards to any person(s) making Infallible statements, is there not?

No, there’s not.

I thought The Orthodox Church did not accept Infallible Pronoucements OUTSIDE of the First 7 Councils of The Church?

canonization is not classed usually with infallible statements of Faith, neither by us or the Vatican. The Early Church of the time of the Seven Ecumenical Councils canonized saints at their time, and the Fathers didn’t class this canonization with their Dogmatic definitions. And we remove not the boundary mark which are Fathers have set up. Proverbs.

 

[TP2]

But how can you say this? The early church may not have defined everything there was to believe, but when it spoke authoritatively in an Ecumenical Council (only first 7 recognized by you) it was Infallible Teaching. Are you going to tell me that The Definition by The Ecumenical Council Defining The Trinity was NOT an Infallible Teaching?

If that is the case and you agree that it was, then how can you now have it both ways by assembling “with the acclamation of the people” by claiming a person is in Heaven and stating that this is NOT an Infallible Statement? I am not discussing Teachings here. I am discussing your answer specifically on Sainthood in retro of my question. If the Orthodox Church can continue to make declarations of men or women as Saints in Heaven and not accept Papal Infallibility, this then becomes a dichotomy and an oxymoron because there are no more Ecemenical Councils called upon by The Orthodox Church.

So if you can get to a point to claim ANYTHING that is in Heaven, then you have Infallibly asserted as much. You can’t have it both ways. I.e., meaning, we cannot accept Papal Infallibility in the case of Defining Faith or Morals, but we can when it comes to declaring that someone IS in Heaven.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

But how can you say this? The early church may not have defined everything there was to believe, but when it spoke authoritatively in an Ecumenical Council (only first 7 recognized by you) it was Infallible Teaching. Are you going to tell me that The Definition by The Ecumenical Council Defining The Trinity was NOT an Infallible Teaching?

No, what makes you think I would?

If that is the case and you agree that it was, then how can you now have it both ways by assembling “with the acclamation of the people” by claiming a person is in Heaven and stating that this is NOT an Infallible Statement?

Not claiming it isn’t. It just is not the same as a Conciliar Ecumenical Definition.

I am not discussing Teachings here. I am discussing your answer specifically on Sainthood in retro of my question. If the Orthodox Church can continue to make declarations of men or women as Saints in Heaven and not accept Papal Infallibility,

We don’t accept the Vatican assertion that only he has the keys to the gates of Heaven, so it’s not a problem.

this then becomes a dichotomy and an oxymoron because there are no more Ecemenical Councils called upon by The Orthodox Church.

and the pope of Rome canonizes outside of the councils and outside of ex cathedra pronouncements, so I am not getting what is our “problem.”

Btw, we can still call them. We just haven’t the need.

So if you can get to a point to claim ANYTHING that is in Heaven, then you have Infallibly asserted as much.

and?

You can’t have it both ways. I.e., meaning, we cannot accept Papal Infallibility in the case of Defining Faith or Morals, but we can when it comes to declaring that someone IS in Heaven.

We don’t accept the Vatican’s infallibilty in the case of Defining Faith or Morals or when it comes to declaring that someone is in Heaven.

 

[TP2]

Isa, This is very simple. Not proufoundly difficult to master. To make a statement that makes a person IN Heaven is another way of saying something is guarranteed to be or Infallibly taught. That’s all i was getting at. The Kernels of The Orthodox faith seem to be evolving. First all there was were the First 7 Ecumenical Councils. Nothing else. Right? Wrong. It appears that there are many things you believe today you would not 100 or 500 years ago have believed.

This is only about consistency. If i tell you that you need to believe that St. Elizabeth is in heaven and you accept it as Gospel truth. that is an Infallible Teaching believed by the both of us. or else what do you wish to call it? I am a simple kinda priest. Not difficult at all. I call it like I see it… To be a Saint means to be in the Presence of a Holy God. If you can state your belief that someone is in heaven after the 8th Centuries of Councils, then you are stating an Infallible like-minded Truth albeit dressed up a little.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Isa, This is very simple.

Yes, it is. Why are you complicating it?

Not proufoundly difficult to master.

Perhaps you might give your understanding of the relationship of canonizations by the Vatican to ex cathedra pronouncments. You seem to be conflating the two. We have never gotten (at least I’ve never seen one) coherent statement of whether the Vatican considers a canonization an ex cathedra pronouncement.

To make a statement that makes a person IN Heaven

The Service of Glorificationdoes not “make” the individual a saint; rather, the Church is simply making a formal acknowledgement of what God has already manifested. Martyrs need no formal Glorification; the witness of their self-sacrifice is sufficient.

is another way of saying something is guarranteed to be or Infallibly taught. That’s all i was getting at.

Somehow I see a variation on the “the-Orthodox-can’t-do-anything-because-they-don’t-have-a-head” theme.

The Kernels of The Orthodox faith seem to be evolving.

Such as?

First all there was were the First 7 Ecumenical Councils. Nothing else. Right? Wrong.

Wrong is right.

For one thing, there are more patriarchates, more saints, more patristrics, etc. but more dogma? No.

It appears that there are many things you believe today you would not 100 or 500 years ago have believed.

Such as?

This is only about consistency. If i tell you that you need to believe that St. Elizabeth is in heaven and you accept it as Gospel truth. that is an Infallible Teaching believed by the both of us. or else what do you wish to call it?

When I was chrismated I wasn’t asked whether St. Elizabeth was in heaven. I was asked to confess the Creed, etc. St. Elizabeth’s sainthood isn’t on the same level as Christ’s divinity. St. Elizabeth, I am sure, would be the first to agree.

I am a simple kinda priest. Not difficult at all. I call it like I see it… To be a Saint means to be in the Presence of a Holy God. If you can state your belief that someone is in heaven after the 8th Centuries of Councils, then you are stating an Infallible like-minded Truth albeit dressed up a little.

and your point would then be?

 

[TP2]

Be simple, brother. If you can make a claim that a person is in heaven, he or she either is or you don’t know. Hence, either still a saint to be prayed to or not. **The Kernel Truth is that it is an Infallible statement that has nothing to do with the First 7 Ecumenical Councils. **

Give me a Canon from the first 7 Ecumenical Councils that gives The “Acclamation of the people” to make an Infallible statement that someone is IN Heaven. Unless you have one, your gonna be playing this tennis match with me all day long. You either have a set PRECEDENCE or ya don’t.

Keep it simple and pithy… for the folks, would you? ** I admit **that I am not saying that this is equivalent to Defining Dogma. But it is an Infallible Statement to make someone canonically a Saint and if it’s not, how do you have the authority to say otherwise?

 

[Nicholas82]

Be simple, brother. If you can make a claim that a person is in heaven, he or she either is or you don’t know. Hence, either still a saint to be prayed to or not. **The Kernel Truth is that it is an Infallible statement that has nothing to do with the First 7 Ecumenical Councils. **

Give me a Canon from the first 7 Ecumenical Councils that gives The “Acclamation of the people” to make an Infallible statement that someone is IN Heaven. Unless you have one, your gonna be playing this tennis match with me all day long. You either have a set PRECEDENCE or ya don’t.

Keep it simple and pithy… for the folks, would you? ** I admit **that I am not saying that this is equivalent to Defining Dogma. But it is an Infallible Statement to make someone canonically a Saint and if it’s not, how do you have the authority to say otherwise?

What about those Catholic Saints that were proclaimed Saints before the current canonization process existed? They weren’t canonized… are you worried now?

 

[TP2]

I never worry. The Catholic Positions on Church Teachings and Ontological Doctrinal Development has always been consistent and never apologetic, no pun.

But if The Orthodox Claims Only To Follow The First 7 Ecumenical Councils, then where is it In those Councils that allows for the Creating of Saints after them? I kindly assert it is found in no 1st Millenium Canons of The Ecumenical Councils.

I have no issue with what The Catholic Church Claims are. It’s just that I find a great **ontological oxymoron **when you can “Make Saints” Infallibly Proclaimed and at the same time critique The Catholic Church for having individual leaders proclaim Infallible Truth as erroneous. Grant it that it is not equivalent to Defining Dogma. But it does declare Saints, as Infallibly present in heaven by you.

As a Byzantine Catholic Priest, tell me which Canon of the First 7Ecumenical Councils gives** YOU **the power to Infallibly proclaim Individuals to Sainthood?

Again, I am a simple kinda priest. But if you have problems with The Catholic understanding of Infallibility, then why even allow it yourselves in ANY way, albeit The Proclamation of Individuals to Sainthood? That doesn’t sound too consistent to me.