Russian Orthodox Church pulls out of Pan-Orthodox Council

[kdbueno]

As long as they are fully in communion with Rome why not

 

[Dmitri77]

Doctrines under challenge:
“Life is sacred, from conception until natural death”
“Marriage is between one man and one woman”.
And etc. There is soon coming lots of etc

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No one in the Church is challenging those doctrines. Nothing has changed. There is no need to call a council just to proclaim existing doctrines. Hisotorically councils are called to clarify and define doctrine. Yes Jesus is God (Arianism), yes Mary is to be called Theotokos (Nestorianism), yes Jesus is both God and man (Monophysitism). Those were doctrines that needed to be defined. The Church proclaims the sanctity of life and of marriage every day. No council is needed to do that.

 

[commenter]

.

No one in the Church is challenging those doctrines. Nothing has changed. There is no need to call a council just to proclaim existing doctrines. Hisotorically councils are called to clarify and define doctrine. Yes Jesus is God (Arianism), yes Mary is to be called Theotokos (Nestorianism), yes Jesus is both God and man (Monophysitism). Those were doctrines that needed to be defined. The Church proclaims the sanctity of life and of marriage every day. No council is needed to do that.

I wonder if that is true.
What about the laity? I know in many countries a high percentage of Catholic and Protestant laity more or less now accept legal abortion and SSM as not inconsistent with Christianity. I do not know but wonder, if that is true among Orthodox laity. Do surveys show a rising percentage of Orthodox laity accepting those things, those “modern moral doctrines”? Have they been legalized in places where there is a high percentage of Orthodox Christians who are allowed to vote?

(I am aware of, and grateful, that the EO Church proclaims the sanctity of life and of marriage every day. Thank you for that!)

 

[Dmitri77]

(I am aware of, and grateful, that the EO Church proclaims the sanctity of life and of marriage every day. Thank you for that!)

Thank you. That’s very gracious of you. This is one item we for the most part agree on. That was to be a topic of discussion at the council. How best to combine efforts with Churches that share our position on these questions. The Catholic Church is one of those Churches.

I mean I love the Catholic Church. I almost became Catholic before I discovered Orthodoxy. You should be proud of your steadfast positions on important items such as the sanctity of life and marriage.

 

[twf]

.

No one in the Church is challenging those doctrines. Nothing has changed. There is no need to call a council just to proclaim existing doctrines. Hisotorically councils are called to clarify and define doctrine. Yes Jesus is God (Arianism), yes Mary is to be called Theotokos (Nestorianism), yes Jesus is both God and man (Monophysitism). Those were doctrines that needed to be defined. The Church proclaims the sanctity of life and of marriage every day. No council is needed to do that.

The Second Vatican Council did not propose any new dogmas, but rather re-presented / repackaged the faith of the ages for a 20th century audience. Does Orthodoxy see no need for this? You say no one in the Church is challenging these doctrines. The vast majority of Orthodox Christians are in Russia. While there has definitely been a resurgence of piety in Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, evils such as abortion and alcohol abuse continue to be rampant… and I would bet big money that there are MILLIONS of baptized Orthodox Christians (just as there are millions of baptized Catholics) who deviate from the Church on key issues… many of whom rarely show up for a Sunday liturgy.

 

[Dmitri77]

The Second Vatican Council did not propose any new dogmas, but rather re-presented / repackaged the faith of the ages for a 20th century audience. Does Orthodoxy see no need for this? You say no one in the Church is challenging these doctrines. The vast majority of Orthodox Christians are in Russia. While there has definitely been a resurgence of piety in Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, evils such as abortion and alcohol abuse continue to be rampant… and I would bet big money that there are MILLIONS of baptized Orthodox Christians (just as there are millions of baptized Catholics) who deviate from the Church on key issues… many of whom rarely show up for a Sunday liturgy.

Which makes me wonder why Vatican II was necessary. A council is called to define doctrine. If the doctrine is already settled but simply misunderstood by the laity that’s no reason to call a council. The bishops simply need to teach the truth. Honestly there was one thing on the itinerary that needed to be addressed by a council and that was what to do with the so called diaspora. The problem was no consensus could be found on the subject so it was simply dropped from the itinerary.

Also I would like to correct a misunderstanding that the media is propagating. This isn’t the first council we’ve had in over a thousand years. There have been many pan-Orthodox councils since the 7th Ecumenical Council including one as late as the 1920’s.

 

[PatrickC]

Which makes me wonder why Vatican II was necessary. A council is called to define doctrine. If the doctrine is already settled but simply misunderstood by the laity that’s no reason to call a council. The bishops simply need to teach the truth. Honestly there was one thing on the itinerary that needed to be addressed by a council and that was what to do with the so called diaspora. The problem was no consensus could be found on the subject so it was simply dropped from the itinerary.

Also I would like to correct a misunderstanding that the media is propagating. This isn’t the first council we’ve had in over a thousand years. There have been many pan-Orthodox councils since the 7th Ecumenical Council including one as late as the 1920’s.

Ecumenical councils were called by Emperors, and included the Ecuminae.there were seven, and now we call councils of our own volition. There are plenty of pragmatic questions I hope will be addressed, but the obstinate attitude of certain churches is somewhat disheartening. I’m not foolish enough to expect otherwise. Still, may the Holy Spirit guide the Church concerning the issues at hand.

 

[commenter]

Ecumenical councils were called by Emperors, and included the Ecuminae.there were seven, and now we call councils of our own volition. There are plenty of pragmatic questions I hope will be addressed, but the obstinate attitude of certain churches is somewhat disheartening. I’m not foolish enough to expect otherwise. Still, may the Holy Spirit guide the Church concerning the issues at hand.

Prayer by all Christians is needed for this, and other gatherings of Christian leaders, of whatever communion.

 

[Dmitri77]

Prayer by all Christians is needed for this, and other gatherings of Christian leaders, of whatever communion.

Agreed. Lord have mercy!

 

[twf]

Which makes me wonder why Vatican II was necessary. A council is called to define doctrine. If the doctrine is already settled but simply misunderstood by the laity that’s no reason to call a council. The bishops simply need to teach the truth. Honestly there was one thing on the itinerary that needed to be addressed by a council and that was what to do with the so called diaspora. The problem was no consensus could be found on the subject so it was simply dropped from the itinerary.

Also I would like to correct a misunderstanding that the media is propagating. This isn’t the first council we’ve had in over a thousand years. There have been many pan-Orthodox councils since the 7th Ecumenical Council including one as late as the 1920’s.

So that the bishops of the world could be aligned in their approach and collectively address practical questions facing the age.
Yes, I know that there have been various pan- Orthodox councils.
Out of curiosity…does anyone know if the Oriental Orthodox have held a “pan” council of any sort in the last 1500 years? Always got the impression that their organization, among the national churches, was even looser than that of the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Ecumenical councils were called by Emperors, and included the Ecuminae.there were seven, and now we call councils of our own volition. There are plenty of pragmatic questions I hope will be addressed, but the obstinate attitude of certain churches is somewhat disheartening. I’m not foolish enough to expect otherwise. Still, may the Holy Spirit guide the Church concerning the issues at hand.

I am torn on this. I believe the Orthodox Church should, as one voice, recognize Catholics and Protestants as members of the larger body of Christ. To my mind, to not do this is unChristian (and I personally believe a grave offense before God). But, on the other hand, there are so many legitimate issues where committed Christians can and do differ (including my previous statement), I am quite supportive of the Orthodox argument of just leave be, don’t push councils on us. There is a strong case for the idea that councils stir up as much trouble and disagreement as they resolve. They always seem very “human” to me as opposed to “Godly.” I honestly want to condemn the Orthodox here for disorganization, internal squabbling, but we Catholics (and the Protestants) have our own share of this too. You see this squabbling in the New Testament among the disciples and apostles right at the beginnings of the Church. So I have no grounds really to say anything negative. In the end I am fine with calling it off. Probably for the best.

 

[prodromos]

I am torn on this. I believe the Orthodox Church should, as one voice, recognize Catholics and Protestants as members of the larger body of Christ.

How can we on the one hand deny Holy Communion to those with whom we are not united in faith, and on the other hand recognise them as the same body as we are?

 

[twf]

How can we on the one hand deny Holy Communion to those with whom we are not united in faith, and on the other hand recognise them as the same body as we are?

An Eastern Orthodox priest once told me that it may turn out that the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox were truly one Church all along…administratively and visibly separately over misunderstandings. It is possible for a mystical communion to remain even in the midst of outward schism. Or maybe it isn’t from your personal point of view. From a Catholic perspective, there is such a mystical communion between the Eastern / Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches and the Catholic Church, by virtue of the apostolic succession you retained and the Eucharist you celebrate (after all, there is but one Lord and one Eucharist), but it is an imperfect communion…frayed, but not completely broken.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Which makes me wonder why Vatican II was necessary. A council is called to define doctrine. If the doctrine is already settled but simply misunderstood by the laity that’s no reason to call a council. The bishops simply need to teach the truth. Honestly there was one thing on the itinerary that needed to be addressed by a council and that was what to do with the so called diaspora. The problem was no consensus could be found on the subject so it was simply dropped from the itinerary.

Also I would like to correct a misunderstanding that the media is propagating. This isn’t the first council we’ve had in over a thousand years. There have been many pan-Orthodox councils since the 7th Ecumenical Council including one as late as the 1920’s.

Indeed, the biggest result of Vatican II was not the definition of doctrine or dogma, but the “Spirit of Vatican II” that has swept the Church and convinced people that the Council said things that it most likely never said, and it certainly did not increase belief in existing Catholic beliefs, especially if you look at the statistics.

 

[kdbueno]

The pan-orthodox council is unholy at times, but its dogmatic probability must be under the supreme jurisprudence of eternal Rome.