Sacraments of the Orthodox and SSPX

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They are, like the Old Catholics, diverging from the church, developing into a unique theology. And for the EXACT same reason: disagreement with the decisions and results of a given council of the church.
The Old Catholics denied Catholic dogma regarding the Papacy.

What dogma have traditional Catholics, such as the SSPX, denied?
And ignoring that every council has had 30-100 years of turmoil following as the meaning of the council becomes discerned by the magisterium.
This is part of that turmoil. We trust that either a saner day in the Church will come or things will continue to get worse until Christ comes.
 


In this regard, they are very similar to many of the Orthodox clergy. They have an attitude that they have the answers and Rome doesn’t know what it’s talking about, because Rome is in crisis. The word “crisisi” is used to deflect all question about their authority to make pronouncements on theology, liturgy and law. That’s an unfortunate behavior.
Great point Brother JR. I have to admit that is why I have been attracted to the SSPX and Orthodox faith lately because they seem to have no problems, at least to the magnitude in the Catholic Church. I still have remained Catholic though. I acknowledge there are many crises within the Church and it just seems overbearing at times to deal with you have to question whether what we are doing or what we have allowed is just.
 
They don’t deny the validity of the tribunal. They deny the prudence and correctness of the tribunal’s decisions. It is certainly not the case that a diocesan tribunal, by virtue of it’s constitution by the diocesan bishop, is necessarily always correct in its determinations.
Is this an example of being more Catholic than the Church? If I have a decree of nullity from a competent authority, I have a valid decree of nullity. For the SSPX, or any parish priest, to not accept it and embark on an independent investigation is an act of defiance and a lack of submission to proper authority.
On the other hand, they don’t claim normal jurisdiction for hearing confessions, but rather extraordinary jurisdiction based on extenuating circumstances.
The circumstances being that all of the valid territorial parishes that someone drives past to get to the SSPX chapel can not provide valid absolution? That’s another example of total disregard for authority.
An unlike Old Catholics, they take great pains to always stress that they have no intention of separating themselves from the Catholic Church
But they have. See the two examples above.
My point is not that the SSPX are correct, but that they are doing their best, according to their own assessment of the post-Vatican-II situation to maintain the Catholic faith as it has historically been believed and practiced.
How can an organization totally disregard the canon law of the Church in terms of the validity of tribunals and of other priests’ sacraments, and then use that same canon law to justify the validity of their own?
 
Great point Brother JR. I have to admit that is why I have been attracted to the SSPX and Orthodox faith lately because they seem to have no problems, at least to the magnitude in the Catholic Church.
The Orthodox Christians have been very blessed. These are Churches that have been persecuted. Stop and think about the history of the Eastern World. Like the Oriental Catholics, they remain very cohesive and they have not grown as the Latin Church. The Orthodox and the Oriental Catholics are less than 10 million compared to a billion Latin Catholics. They had no room for expansion and growth, not through any fault of their own, just because of the political world in which they live. Whereas the Latin Church has spread so far and wide that it has become multicultural and a plurality of thoughts and ideas. This can be good and bad. Plurality always has issues.

I believe that these small Churches that have been under the gun by so many opposing forces: Islam, Communism, Nazism, Czars and monarchies have had their hands full with other issues. They tried very hard to preserve the things that unified them, not only as a Church, but also as a culture. This is not to say that they have not had real problems. They have, but they are not as observable.

Their problems have been in the areas of theology, inter-religious dialogue with each other, not just with Catholics. Until recently, they could not stand each other, because each Church was closely identified with a national or ethnic identity. Their vocation crisis is more severe than that of Latin Catholics, Protestants and Jews. They have been unable to respond to the corporal needs of their people, because they have been impaired by their situation, the shortage of manpower and the shortage of religious.

In most countries where Oriental Christians and Latin Catholics co-exist, it’s the Latin Catholics who care for the poor, the sick, the immigrant, the orphans, the dying, the victims of war. It’s the Latin Catholics who have provided education and healthcare when the state destroyed the local infrastructure It’s the Latin Catholics who have brought in millions of dollars to feed the hungry. The Orthodox have limited themselves to worship. It’s not that they don’t care. It’s that they have a critical shortage of religious and a critical shortage of lay missionaries, whereas we have a very rich tradition of diverse forms of religious life and diverse apostolic works.

I remember visiting Israel. All of the corporal works of mercy aer attended to by join teams of Latin Catholic religious, Jews and Muslims working together. When there is a bombing and people are left homeless, these interfaith teams go out to bring Christ’s love and healing to the victims. The Orthodox watch, but don’t get involved. They are still in conflict with the Jews, Muslims and Catholics. They will not cooperate in joint missionary activity on behalf of the poorest of the poor. They turned down Mother Teresa’s offer to found houses in their territories for two reasons. First, their women religious are nuns. They don’t have sisters. The idea of a sister, such as Mother Teresa, is foreign to them and they will not entertain it. Second, they are afraid of doing anything with anyone outside of their Church, because they are so small, that they can’t take the chance of losing people to the Catholics, Jews, Protestants, or Muslims.

To many Traditionalists, not all, outreach to the poorest of the poor is not important as long as you have good liturgy. These few who think this way, are not going to see this serious problem in the Eastern Churches. Those of us who realize that Christ thirsts for souls and for food, have a very different view of things. We approach this as a call to bring Christ to the poor and to go out and find him in the poor. To us, it’s an extension of the Eucharist. You cannot bring you gifts to the altar if your brother or sister has something against you.

If your brother or sister has been hungry and you have not attended to his or her needs, he has every reason to have something against you.

You cannot tune in to the sacrifice of Calvary and tune out human suffering. At Calvary, Christ unites all suffering to himself and he restores all things to order. Is now our job to use the flood of graces that Christ has made available to resote the order that Christ made possible. We celebrate the sacrifice of the mass with full knowledge that it brings consequences and demands. Christ does not invite us to go to Calvary and then go home, just the opposite. He goes to Calvary and then rises. He goes on mission. He spends 40 days with the Church getting her ready to go out to proclaim the Gospel. The Gospel is not simply words. It’s a way of life, a worldview, a journey. That’s why I have a special devotion to St. Francis and Bl. Teresa of Calcutta. They didn’t preach the mass. They lived it. They didn’t talk about love, they loved. They didn’t talk about orthodoxy, they were orthodox. They didn’t argue or debate about ecumenism, they were brother and sister to every man and woman of every faith and they saw the good in every faith without compromising their faith. They refrained from attacking the weaknesses of those faiths. Yet, they made more converts than most of us. How? Because they loved and gained the trust of others. When others trust you, they will watch you closely and eventually they begin to ask questions.

We don’t see a lot of this outside of our Catholic faith. The grass may look greener on the other side, until you cross the fence. Then you find that the issues that they have are different from our won, but serious issues nonetheless.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Is this an example of being more Catholic than the Church? If I have a decree of nullity from a competent authority, I have a valid decree of nullity. For the SSPX, or any parish priest, to not accept it and embark on an independent investigation is an act of defiance and a lack of submission to proper authority.
Both Popes John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have stated strongly that the annulment situation in the US is very grave. The SSPX is not imagining the problem.

One news report of many: Tribunals should work quickly, defend marriage, Pope says

Here is an article by a mainline priest: Too Many Invalid Annulments by Msgr. Clarence J. Hettinger (RIP)

Your statement “If I have a decree of nullity from a competent authority, I have a valid decree of nullity.” is false. Decrees of nullity do not carry with them any promise of infallibility. Either the marriage exists or it doesn’t, a tribunal cannot change that, not even the pope can change that. So if your marriage was valid then if you re-marry, there is an objective sin of adultery. If you believe your marriage to be invalid (and so says the tribunal) but it is in fact valid and you remarry, the objective sin is the same but there is no subjective sin. If you know full well that your marriage was valid and that the decree of the tribunal was faulty (you or your spouse presented false information or the logic of the tribunal was obviously fuzzy) and you re-marry, there would be subjective sin.

The tribunals may be the legally competent authority but, for the United States at least, they have (in general) shown themselves to be woefully incompetent. This is why those who are concerned for the actual validity and not just trying to push through a “Catholic divorce” need an alternative system.
The circumstances being that all of the valid territorial parishes that someone drives past to get to the SSPX chapel can not provide valid absolution? That’s another example of total disregard for authority.
That depends on the situation. The principle is sound, not only physical impediments but moral impediments are sufficient grounds to enable suspended priests to grant absolution Ecclesia supplet.
 
Your statement “If I have a decree of nullity from a competent authority, I have a valid decree of nullity.” is false. Decrees of nullity do not carry with them any promise of infallibility. Either the marriage exists or it doesn’t, a tribunal cannot change that, not even the pope can change that. So if your marriage was valid then if you re-marry, there is an objective sin of adultery. If you believe your marriage to be invalid (and so says the tribunal) but it is in fact valid and you remarry, the objective sin is the same but there is no subjective sin. If you know full well that your marriage was valid and that the decree of the tribunal was faulty (you or your spouse presented false information or the logic of the tribunal was obviously fuzzy) and you re-marry, there would be subjective sin.
I HAVE TO BELIEVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ITS AGENTS. The same “keys” that give the priest the right to forgive sins or withhold forgiveness give the tribunal the right to declare nullity. Sorry, you can say that too many annulments are granted (and I agree), but there are not “true” decrees or nullity and “false” decrees of nullity. They are simply canonically valid decrees of nullity.
That depends on the situation. The principle is sound, not only physical impediments but moral impediments are sufficient grounds to enable suspended priests to grant absolution Ecclesia supplet.
Are you saying that the parish priests the SSPX faithful drive by are morally unable to foregive sins?
 
I HAVE TO BELIEVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ITS AGENTS.
I am not trying to undermine your confidence in the Church. I am simply reminding you that the Church is both Divine and human and sometimes its human side is sometimes all too human. Right now, in the United States, annulments are often granted for spurious reasons.
The same “keys” that give the priest the right to forgive sins or withhold forgiveness give the tribunal the right to declare nullity.
If I am accused of murder and I go before a judge and jury and they convict me, did I commit the murder? The judge does not change reality, I may have committed the murder, I may not have committed it, but nothing the judge says will change that. But if I am convicted, the law says I must pay the penalty. But I am not morally guilty of murder if I really did not commit that murder, likewise if I am let go and I am guilty of it, then it’s still on my head. The court does its best to provide an approximation of justice but it does not change reality.

Likewise an ecclesiastical court does its best to provide a correct judgment on whether or not a valid marriage was contracted but it cannot change reality. Either the marriage exists or it does not. Neither the criminal court nor the ecclesiastical court has a promise of infallibility, sometimes they can and are wrong.

If in the US criminal courts, more than 90% of all people accused of murder were found to be not guilty, wouldn’t you see that there was a real problem with our legal system?

That’s the sort of crisis we are in with regards to the ecclesiastical legal system. You may say that you believe every judgment that comes out of the civil courts to be true, otherwise you would not trust the US legal system. You may say that you believe every judgment that comes out of the ecclesiastical courts to be true, otherwise you would not trust the ecclesiastical legal system. But the reality is that you can both trust the courts in principle and they make mistakes. But with regards to the ecclesiastical court system, there seems to be a systematic re-definition of marriage through judicial activism – the canon lawyers and tribunals in the US are trying to re-define marriage just as much as the homosexual activists in the civil courts and both are deadly dangerous to true marriages.
Sorry, you can say that too many annulments are granted (and I agree), but there are not “true” decrees or nullity and “false” decrees of nullity. They are simply canonically valid decrees of nullity.
If the decree of nullity reflects reality (that the marriage is invalid), it is true. If the decree of nullity does not reflect reality, it is false. Like a civil court system, the ecclesiastical courts try to provide an approximation of reality, but even in the best of times neither are perfect. In the present crisis, the ecclesiastical courts are far from perfect and often very corrupt with trying to promote their own definition of marriage.
Are you saying that the parish priests the SSPX faithful drive by are morally unable to foregive sins?
I am saying that if someone goes to confession with an SSPX priest, they are doing so because they believe that there is a moral or physical impediment to them going to confession with another priest. You are trying to turn the focus to the priest, the focus is on the penitent.
 
I am not trying to undermine your confidence in the Church. I am simply reminding you that the Church is both Divine and human and sometimes its human side is sometimes all too human. Right now, in the United States, annulments are often granted for spurious reasons.
But, they are valid decrees of nullity. Period. Full Stop. End of Story.

This is the present crisis - we have, on the one side, people refusing to believe what the Church teaches, and on the other side, we have people refusing to assent to what the Church does.

That’s two sides of the same coin, isn’t it?
 
It’s not just that the SSPX rejects the decisions of Catholic tribunals; the SSPX rejects the 1983 canon law itself that is used to make those decisions.

From the SSPX website (see here), regarding canon 1098:

Until the 1983 Code, deceit was never accepted as a grounds for nullity of marriage, and this in order to protect the permanence of the conjugal bond. However, the authors admit that the Church could introduce, in her positive law, deceit as a grounds, especially if the deceit concerned something necessary to the primary object of marriage, such as the bonum prolis (e.g., one of the spouses deliberately hiding the fact that he/she was sterile).

But canon 1098 of the 1983 Code is much broader than this, and includes such deceit as the hiding of drunkenness, drug addiction, or even an angry temperament, which would make the common life impossible. The personalist inspiration of this new canon is quite clear and such that we cannot accept it. Nor is it our place to reformulate it in a Catholic sense.
 
I am not trying to undermine your confidence in the Church. I am simply reminding you that the Church is both Divine and human and sometimes its human side is sometimes all too human. Right now, in the United States, annulments are often granted for spurious reasons.

If I am accused of murder and I go before a judge and jury and they convict me, did I commit the murder? The judge does not change reality, I may have committed the murder, I may not have committed it, but nothing the judge says will change that. But if I am convicted, the law says I must pay the penalty. But I am not morally guilty of murder if I really did not commit that murder, likewise if I am let go and I am guilty of it, then it’s still on my head. The court does its best to provide an approximation of justice but it does not change reality.

Likewise an ecclesiastical court does its best to provide a correct judgment on whether or not a valid marriage was contracted but it cannot change reality. Either the marriage exists or it does not. Neither the criminal court nor the ecclesiastical court has a promise of infallibility, sometimes they can and are wrong.

If in the US criminal courts, more than 90% of all people accused of murder were found to be not guilty, wouldn’t you see that there was a real problem with our legal system?

That’s the sort of crisis we are in with regards to the ecclesiastical legal system. You may say that you believe every judgment that comes out of the civil courts to be true, otherwise you would not trust the US legal system. You may say that you believe every judgment that comes out of the ecclesiastical courts to be true, otherwise you would not trust the ecclesiastical legal system. But the reality is that you can both trust the courts in principle and they make mistakes. But with regards to the ecclesiastical court system, there seems to be a systematic re-definition of marriage through judicial activism – the canon lawyers and tribunals in the US are trying to re-define marriage just as much as the homosexual activists in the civil courts and both are deadly dangerous to true marriages.

If the decree of nullity reflects reality (that the marriage is invalid), it is true. If the decree of nullity does not reflect reality, it is false. Like a civil court system, the ecclesiastical courts try to provide an approximation of reality, but even in the best of times neither are perfect. In the present crisis, the ecclesiastical courts are far from perfect and often very corrupt with trying to promote their own definition of marriage.

I am saying that if someone goes to confession with an SSPX priest, they are doing so because they believe that there is a moral or physical impediment to them going to confession with another priest. You are trying to turn the focus to the priest, the focus is on the penitent.
You are making statements here that Bl. John Paul dealt with and denied. My question to you is why are you so bent on contradicting him?

He said there was no state of emergency. He said that the Church would not supply the facultieis except in cases of life and death and he said that a priest without faculties could not validly absolve.

As to the annulments, the policy has always been that if either party doubts the outcome of the trial, he or she can appeal it to the Holy See. One of the Kennedy’s did and it was turned around. So, there are procedural safeguards in place for this kind of thing. If people do not appeal, it is because they choose not to do so.

You seem bent on pushing that the SSPX is right on every count. Nothing they say can be questioned, in your book. It’s sounding to me as if you have subscribed to them as another Magisterium in your life.

If that’s what you choose to do, then do so. Please don’t share that with other Catholics as if this was acceptable to the Church, because it’s not acceptable. If it were acceptable, these talks would not be taking place at the Vatican. The fact that they are taking place is because the Vatican does not agree with the SSPX on these points.

Are you forgetting that in the same letter in which the Holy Father lifted the excommunications he also said that they had some doctrinal issues that they had to accept? He did not say that they are bad people. No one else has said that either. He did say that they are doctrinally wrong in some points. Your posture throughout this entire discussion is that nothing they say can be doctrinally wrong, but everything that the Vatican says is questionable at best.

What’s your agenda?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It’s not just that the SSPX rejects the decisions of Catholic tribunals; the SSPX rejects the 1983 canon law itself that is used to make those decisions.

From the SSPX website (see here), regarding canon 1098:

Until the 1983 Code, deceit was never accepted as a grounds for nullity of marriage, and this in order to protect the permanence of the conjugal bond. However, the authors admit that the Church could introduce, in her positive law, deceit as a grounds, especially if the deceit concerned something necessary to the primary object of marriage, such as the bonum prolis (e.g., one of the spouses deliberately hiding the fact that he/she was sterile).

But canon 1098 of the 1983 Code is much broader than this, and includes such deceit as the hiding of drunkenness, drug addiction, or even an angry temperament, which would make the common life impossible. The personalist inspiration of this new canon is quite clear and such that we cannot accept it. Nor is it our place to reformulate it in a Catholic sense.
It’s comments like these that has these talks going on and on. Whereas the FSSP and the Transalpine Redemptorists, now the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer have said, "OK, we submit to canon law, the CCC, the Council documents as the pope akss us to do, the SSPX is still trying to change the pope’s mind. At some point, they have to back down or this will never come to an end.

Pope Benedict is not going to say that Council documents that he helped write and canon law that he reviewed and liturgical norms that he approved during his tenure as theologian and later as Prefect for the Sacred Congregation of the Faith are wrong. The man worked like a mule on all of this and he did not work alone. He worked with teams of scholars. He submitted everything to two popes, both of whom were also scholars. Pope Paul VI was a doctor of law and Bl. John Paul was a Doctor of Theology and Doctor of Philosophy. These popes were men of reason, faith, good will and had solid backgrounds. These were not documents that were just slipped past them. Cardinal Ratzinger has always been a man of integrity. There is no reason to say that he deliberately or knowingly allowed a flaw to pass through his hands.

He has admitted that the flaws during his tenure as prefect and pope have been due to lack of information about specific details, not a lack of knowledge or lack of fidelity on his part or that of the popes under which he served.

My question for those who are so bent on defending everything that the SSPX suppots is this.

In a worse case scenario, which I hope never happens, where the Vatican tells the SSPX, “Take it or leave it” and the SSPX chooses to leave, are you going to follow them out the door?

This passion that does not tolerate or entertain the idea that they my be wrong or at the very least that they should obey, this passion seems almost to say, “I’ll follow the SSPX right out the church door if I have to do so.”

That kind of passion for a society, not a pope, a simple society that was originally carved out for one purpose, to preserve the Tridentine form and has now become the self appointed protector of orthodoxy is very scary.

At what point does the man in the pew say, “OK, Rome has spoken and if the SSPX will not comply, then the SSPX and I will have to go our separate ways, but I’m not fighting Rome.”

Eventually, that’s going to happen. Some things that the SSPX has put on the table are going to be granted, because they don’t affect everyone. They are really good things and can be legitimate options for the faithful. I say, if they can be legitimate options, such as the EF, then by all means, the charitable thing to do is to allow it. Someone will benefit from it. There are other points that will not be agreed upon and the Vatican will determine that the conversation is over, “Take it or leave”. This is not new. They did this to Archbishop Lefebvre. In fact, it was Cardinal Ratzinger who told him this.

I find this scary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
That kind of passion for a society, not a pope, a simple society that was originally carved out for one purpose, to preserve the Tridentine form and has now become the self appointed protector of orthodoxy is very scary.
Actually, Brother JR, the SSPX was originally founded for the purpose of maintaining traditional priestly formation. The seed that grew into the SSPX was a few seminarians coming to Archbishop Lefebvre saying that their seminaries had gone crazy in the wake of Vatican II, and seeking traditional formation.

At the beginning, Archbishop Lefebvre and all of his associates used the interim missals of the mid- to late-60s before later reverting to the 1962 missal.

As far as I can tell the current raison d’etre of the SSPX is to preserve traditional Catholic doctrine, as they see it. One thing that they will probably insist upon before accepting any regularization is some sort of document that clearly, unambiguously, and authoritatively explains how the documents of Vatican II are to be interpreted in such a way that does not contradict prior magisterial documents.
Eventually, that’s going to happen … the Vatican will determine that the conversation is over, “Take it or leave”. This is not new. They did this to Archbishop Lefebvre. In fact, it was Cardinal Ratzinger who told him this.
If and when this happens, they will do what Archbishop Lefebvre did. They are willing to wait hundreds of years for the “Pope of Tradition” who will see things their way.
 
Actually, Brother JR, the SSPX was originally founded for the purpose of maintaining traditional priestly formation. The seed that grew into the SSPX was a few seminarians coming to Archbishop Lefebvre saying that their seminaries had gone crazy in the wake of Vatican II, and seeking traditional formation.

At the beginning, Archbishop Lefebvre and all of his associates used the interim missals of the mid- to late-60s before later reverting to the 1962 missal.
The above part is comprehensible. They could not have imagined what would follow. No one has a crystal ball that actually works. 😃 They probably never dreamed that they would be followed by some very angry and hostile people. I’m sure that they expected the lay faithful to be like them. I remember this movement. They were very gentle and not antagonistic at all. Unfortunately, many of the people who joined them were cut from a different bolt of cloth. These include lay and clerics.
As far as I can tell the current raison d’etre of the SSPX is to preserve traditional Catholic doctrine, **as they see it. **One thing that **they will probably insist **upon before accepting any regularization is some sort of document that clearly, unambiguously, and authoritatively explains how the documents of Vatican II are to be interpreted in such a way that does not contradict prior magisterial documents.
I’ve bolded the parts that are problematic.

This part is where the danger lies. Not everything is always going to work out as we see it. At some point, we have to accept things the way that authority says to maintain communion…

Second, to request is one thing. To put conditions on the papacy is quite another. The former is legitimate. The latter is dangerous. We don’t have a right to put conditions on those who are above us, especially as a condition for communion. That’s a slippery slope. If every group out there, to the left or to the right were allowed to put conditions on the papacy before they agree to remain in full communion, where would that lead? At some point, the papacy must retain the freedom to accept or reject a request and those making the request must live with the answer. Just as we ask God for what we believe is good and he does not always give it to us, so it is with the Church, the State, our parents or any other legitimate authority. It’s the natural way that things work. We don’t always get that for which we ask; but we accept that as part of life. This takes us back to the great Catholic reformers of the past. They did not always get what they asked for, even though they believed it was a legitimate request. The difference was that they understood that it was a request, not a demand. They understood that they had no right to demand. This is how they became saints.
If and when this happens, they will do what Archbishop Lefebvre did. They are willing to wait hundreds of years for the “Pope of Tradition” who will see things their way.
If that person never comes, they will remain outside the Church or at best on the fringes for hundreds of years. This begs two questions.
  1. Will the Church allow them to do this?
  2. Will the lay faithful follow?
It is very possible that the Church will not allow this and another excommunication will take place. Personally, I don’t think it’s going down that way. I believe that the leadership of the SSPX is going to compromise. I do believe that there will be some who will not like the compromise and will walk. In that case, they excommunicate themselves. That’s foreseeable.

My sense is that Bishop Fellay dearly loves the Church and the people who follow the SSPX and he will do everything he can for reconciliation. However, there is no guarantee that there won’t be a few knuckleheads who will buck Bishop Fellay. There are a few in every group.

If the worse happens, Bishop Fellay does not compromise, the lay faithful will have to pick their pope, either Bishop Fellay or the man sitting on the Chair of Peter. Are people ready to do that?

As I said, I don’t believe that Bishop Fellay will go that way. I believe that he, like the FSSP and the Sons of the Holy Redeemer will agree that they can’t get everything, but full communion with the Primacy is the higher good.

The holiness of a real reformer is not measured by how deep he digs his heals, but by his obedience and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of unity.

My great concern is not for Bishop Fellay. I’m concerned about the lay person who believes that he or she has the right to turn his or her back on Church authority. I don’t see Bishop Fellay saying this to people. However, I have heard this from many lay people, religious and clerics to the left and to the right. Whether one is on the left or the right, the belief that we have the right to dissent is extremist and dangerous to the soul.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually, Brother JR, the SSPX was originally founded for the purpose of maintaining traditional priestly formation. The seed that grew into the SSPX was a few seminarians coming to Archbishop Lefebvre saying that their seminaries had gone crazy in the wake of Vatican II, and seeking traditional formation.
Which has been widely noted. Just look at what happened with the Jesuits.
At the beginning, Archbishop Lefebvre and all of his associates used the interim missals of the mid- to late-60s before later reverting to the 1962 missal.
True, actually contrary to popular belief, Lefebvre was not opposed to liturgical reform. He even supported the saying of the Mass of the Catechumens in the vernacular and some of the other provisions of the Instructions on Sacrosanctum Concilium (which have collectively sometimes been called the “1965 missal”). The reason the 1962 Missal was adopted was because it was the last edition of the Roman Missal This is also why the 1964-65 reforms are not licit under Ecclesia Dei Masses either (FSSP, ICRSS, diocesan, etc.) but only the actual 1962 rubrics.
As far as I can tell the current raison d’etre of the SSPX is to preserve traditional Catholic doctrine, as they see it. One thing that they will probably insist upon before accepting any regularization is some sort of document that clearly, unambiguously, and authoritatively explains how the documents of Vatican II are to be interpreted in such a way that does not contradict prior magisterial documents.
Yes. I agree.

The latest edition of Bp. Williamson’s column emphases this:
Bp. Richard Williamson:
As the doctrinal Discussions which were held from the autumn of 2009 to the spring of this year between the Society of St Pius X and Rome drop back into the past, the question naturally arises of future relations between the two. Among Catholics on both sides there is a wish for contacts to continue, but since such pious wishes for union easily give rise to illusions, it is necessary to keep one’s grip on reality if one is not to join the whole modern world in its anti-God fantasy.

Originally the Discussions were wanted not by the Society but by Rome, as it hoped to dissolve the Society’s notorious resistance to the Neo-modernism of Vatican II. The great obstacle was doctrine, because the Society is well protected inside the fortress of the Church’s age-old and unchanging doctrine. It had to be lured out of that fortress. Now for Neo-modernists, just as for Communists, any contact or dialogue with an adversary in a secure position was - and remains - better than none, because he can only lose by it while they can only gain. So Rome agreed even to doctrinal Discussions.

Alas for Rome, the Society’s four representatives believe clearly and held firm. As one of the four Roman theologians taking part in the Discussions was overheard to say afterwards, “We do not understand them and they do not understand us.” Of course. Unless the Romans abandoned their Neo-modernism or the Society priests betrayed the Truth, it was bound to be a relatively fruitless dialogue. But Rome cannot stand its own betrayal of the Truth being shown up by the paltry Society, so it is not likely to give up. That is why we already hear of an Ecclesia Dei spokesman telling that Rome will very soon offer an “Apostolic Ordinariat” to the Society. Of course such a quote may be merely a trial balloon to test reactions, but it is also a tempting idea. Unlike a Personal Prelature, an Apostolic Ordinariat is independent of the local bishops, and unlike an Apostolic Administration, such as Campos in Brazil, it is not confined to just one diocese. What more could the Society ask for?

It asks that Rome should come back to the Truth, because it knows, as do Communists and Neo-modernists, that any practical co-operation which would skirt around doctrinal disagreement leads eventually, for all kinds of human reasons, to absorbing the false doctrine of the enemies of the Faith, in other words to betraying the Truth. Here is why the Society’s Superior General has in public more than once repudiated any canonical agreement with Rome that would precede a doctrinal agreement. But the Discussions have served at least to demonstrate the depth of the doctrinal disagreement between the Society and Neo-modernist Rome. That is why Catholics should be prepared for the Society to refuse even the offer of an Apostolic Ordinariat, however well-intentioned the Roman authorities may be.

But why is doctrine so important? Because the Catholic Faith is a doctrine. But why is Faith so important? Because without it we cannot please God (Heb.XI,6). But why must it be the Catholic Faith? Will no other faith in God do? No, because God himself underwent the horror of the Cross to reveal to us the one true Faith. All other “faiths” contradict, more or less, that true Faith, with lies.

Four future numbers of “Eleison Comments” will show, with all due respect, how disoriented in this respect is the way of believing of the present Pope, however well-intentioned he may also be.

Kyrie eleison.
 
Which has been widely noted. Just look at what happened with the Jesuits.

True, actually contrary to popular belief, Lefebvre was not opposed to liturgical reform. He even supported the saying of the Mass of the Catechumens in the vernacular and some of the other provisions of the Instructions on Sacrosanctum Concilium (which have collectively sometimes been called the “1965 missal”). The reason the 1962 Missal was adopted was because it was the last edition of the Roman Missal This is also why the 1964-65 reforms are not licit under Ecclesia Dei Masses either (FSSP, ICRSS, diocesan, etc.) but only the actual 1962 rubrics.

Yes. I agree.

The latest edition of Bp. Williamson’s column emphases this:
I pray that Bishop Williamson’s statement does not truly represent the position of the Bishop Fellay. Even his use of terminology sounds Anglican or Lutheran, not Catholic. That’s unfortunate.
Four future numbers of “Eleison Comments” will show, with all due respect, how disoriented in this respect is the way of believing of the present Pope, however well-intentioned he may also be.
No bishop or major superior would dare make such a comment in public and much less, put it in writing. This is not courage. This is outright disrespectful. This should raise all kinds of red flags, if not about the Society about this particular person’s attitude.
That is why Catholics should be prepared for the Society to refuse even the offer of an Apostolic Ordinariat, however well-intentioned the Roman authorities may be.
That would be the kiss of death. They will either remain in limbo or worse, excommunicate themselves . . . again. :banghead:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I pray that Bishop Williamson’s statement does not truly represent the position of the Bishop Fellay.
Bp. Williamson and Bp. Fellay don’t really see eye-to-eye on the matter of reconciliation. Bp. Tissier de Mallerais is aligned with Bp. Williamson. Bp. Galarreta is more aligned with Bp. Fellay and is in charge of the SSPX side of the doctrinal discussions.

So there is a divide both among the bishops, as well as among the priests and laity as to their outlook on the discussions. Some are more eager for a practical solution than others. Without a doubt, if a practical solution were agreed upon, there would be a split.

On the other hand, even Bp. Fellay has said that they are not seeking a practical solution but the conversion of Rome. So sometimes there seems to be a divide and sometimes there does not seem to be.
Even his use of terminology sounds Anglican or Lutheran, not Catholic. That’s unfortunate.
I’m not sure what you mean by this statement. There are certainly more obtuse writings of Bp. Williamson where his terminology really gets in the way of what he is trying to say and ends up sounding almost like a sedevacantist (such as in his column opposing the beatification of Pope John Paul II which sounds like it could have come from the “Traditio” website). So you have to understand his way of speaking and what he means when he says what he does. He tends not to speak very precisely too often but tends towards almost demagoguery at times.

So what does it mean to say that his “terminology sounds Anglican or Lutheran, not Catholic”?
That would be the kiss of death. They will either remain in limbo or worse, excommunicate themselves . . . again. :banghead:
From the SSPX perspective, they don’t believe that the bishops were ever excommunicated and so they are not concerned about that. However, although they yearn for full recognition by Rome, their primary concern is not with their status but with the state of the Church.

If you have time to sit down and watch a long talk (90min) by Fr. Pfluger, First Assistant to Bp. Fellay, you can better understand the Society’s position as it presently stands (Feb 2011) with regards to the talks:
Fr Pfluger - Doctrinal Discussions, Assisi, and the faith.
 
Bp. Williamson and Bp. Fellay don’t really see eye-to-eye on the matter of reconciliation. Bp. Tissier de Mallerais is aligned with Bp. Williamson. Bp. Galarreta is more aligned with Bp. Fellay and is in charge of the SSPX side of the doctrinal discussions.

So there is a divide both among the bishops, as well as among the priests and laity as to their outlook on the discussions. Some are more eager for a practical solution than others. Without a doubt, if a practical solution were agreed upon, there would be a split.

There are certainly more obtuse writings of Bp. Williamson where his terminology really gets in the way of what he is trying to say and ends up sounding almost like a sedevacantist (such as in his column opposing the beatification of Pope John Paul II which sounds like it could have come from the “Traditio” website).

If you have time to sit down and watch a long talk (90min) by Fr. Pfluger, First Assistant to Bp. Fellay, you can better understand the Society’s position as it presently stands (Feb 2011) with regards to the talks:
Fr Pfluger - Doctrinal Discussions, Assisi, and the faith.
I had read this article and seen this video. I did go back and take another look and all kinds of red flags go up in my head.

Observe how Bishop Williamson speaks about the beatification. His implication, without saying so, is that the current pope is wrong and that he’s not “being Catholic”.

According to Catholic theology, if the man sitting on the Chair of Peter errs in matters of faith or morals, then he is an invalid pope or an antipope. This would mean that the Chair of Peter is vacant.

When a pope proclaims that a person is in heaven, this is a matter of faith. He is speaking about what God has done for a person who has lived a heroic Christian life . . . in this case, John Paul II. There is no possible way that a pope can proclaim that God has done something, which he has not done or that a pope can deny something that God has done. Christ promised Peter, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against you.” He also told Peter, “He who hears you hears me.” Finally, “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Christ gives Peter the assurance that he will be protected from the evil on who is the Father of Error.

When a pope proclaims that John Paul II is a blessed, he is proclaiming two things: a) John Paul II lived a life of heroic Christian virtue and b) God has confirmed our belief through a miracle that has been proven to be worthy of belief beyond any reasonable doubt. If I were to say that Pope Benedict is mistaken about John Paul’s holiness, then I am in fact saying that Pope Benedict is unable to recognize the work of God. If that is the case, then he is unable to recognize truth. A man who is unable to recognize truth cannot be a real pope, because the promise to Peter was that he would speak truth “He who hears you hears me.” Christ does not speak falsehood.
If Pope Benedict proclaims that anyone is a blessed and that God has confirmed it by a miracle that cannot be explained through human science, he is in fact making a statement about what God has done in the life of Bl. John Paul and through the prayers of Bl. John Paul. If we deny that what Pope Benedict is saying, then we are in fact saying that he is proclaiming a falsehood for the world to follow. How is it possible for the Successor Peter to proclaim a falsehood for the world to follow, unless he is not the successor of Peter, but an imposter. That’s a very big claim. Bishop Williamson is in fact telling the world that he has inside knowledge into the mind of God and knows that God did not do this.

Bishop Williamson is like the subordinate officer who is accusing his superior officer of violating the rules, but has not proof. He subscribes to argumentum ad hominem. He attacks the pope and the Church by name-calling. He pulls out all of these cute little names: the Newchurch, Newblessed, Conciliarism, Newbeatifications. It’s interesting to note that he writes these with upper case letters. In other words, he creates a new set of terms that he, of his own authority, deems them to be proper nouns. His arrogance goes as far as creating language to drive home his point. When you have to create your own language to drive home a point, it usually means that you don’t have a valid point. Rather, you’re just grinding your ax, because you’re not getting your way. If you had a valid point, you would be able to use the language of truth to defend it, as Paul did in Jerusalem.

Why would you even post such an article or a link to such a video that send up so many red flags? This is Protestant Language. This was the language of Luther. The Church had lost its way. Only he and those who agreed with him were Catholic. Everyone else was a “new catholic” or a “new church”. This is what this bishop is saying.

There is a question here about discretion. If a bishop has such serious questions about a pope’s judgment or decisions, putting them on the internet for the world is not the solution to the bishop’s problems. The solution would be to present these concerns to those who have the power to do something about these questions. That would be the pope himself and the College of Cardinals. When you put this stuff on the internet, it’s just propaganda. I can’t imagine bishops such as Karol Wojtyła, Joseph Ratzinger, Angelo Roncalli, Bonaventure, Eugenio Pacelli, or Giuseppe Sarto airing out dirty laundry. Can you?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Well, this is certainly an interesting thread. I have learned much.
 
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