Sacrifice of the Mass

[porthos11]

Please move this argument to another thread or kill it completely. You’ve brought this way off-topic already.

The fact is, the Church says on her God-given authority that the current rite of the Mass is valid. Therefore, your words carry no weight with the faithful Catholics here. You’ve done nothing but be your own Pope. Ramble all you want, it will do no good.

CrusaderNY:

In Part V of DeDefectibus in Celebratione Missarum Occurrentibus which is a section incorporated into the rubrics and the Roman Missal at Trent, which was to be used in perpetuity, the words of consecration, which are the FORM of the sacrement (remember that for a sacrement to be valid it must have proper matter and form) are :"For this is the Chalice of my Blood, of the new and eternal testament; the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for MANY unto the remission of sins"

In the “All English Canon” that was introduced, the ICEL gave the following form for the wine consecration:

“this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant-the mystery of faith. This blood is to be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven”

After two more goes at it, it now reads:
"This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for ALL so that sins may be forgiven"
(pro multis-for many, not for all no matter what the liberals say, it translates as for many)

So, the questions is asked, has the form been altared, destroyed, invalidated? If not, why not, as a church, change it at all, why change the most sacred part of the Mass, is it because Bugnini and his 6 Protestants wanted it that way?

 

[CrusaderNY]

Such animosity I feel…I guess the question,which pertained to the “sacrifice of the mass”, is a hard one to answer. I guess the questions posed, which may indicate a breaking away from church doctrine and bring into question the validity of a sacrement, as defined by the Catechisms of the church is something someone like you (well after all you did call me the Pope so I guess I am allowed now to pose this question) does not want to go near, for fear of calling into question the entire establishment.
Actually, your answer “Well the Vatican says it is so…” is just the answer that the so called Modernists rebelled against and overthrew the establishment of the Traditional Church at Vatican II with their heretical theologians because they hated the fact that Popes such as Pope St Pius X told them “this is the answer and dont question it”. It is so funny how now the liberals are actually scared to question something that has a lot of merit and reason to question…

porthos11:

Please move this argument to another thread or kill it completely. You’ve brought this way off-topic already.

The fact is, the Church says on her God-given authority that the current rite of the Mass is valid. Therefore, your words carry no weight with the faithful Catholics here. You’ve done nothing but be your own Pope. Ramble all you want, it will do no good.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

CrusaderNY:

Such animosity I feel…I guess the question,which pertained to the “sacrifice of the mass”, is a hard one to answer. I guess the questions posed, which may indicate a breaking away from church doctrine and bring into question the validity of a sacrement, as defined by the Catechisms of the church is something someone like you (well after all you did call me the Pope so I guess I am allowed now to pose this question) does not want to go near, for fear of calling into question the entire establishment.

You are very misleading here. Should say “as defined by the Catechisms of the church which I believe in” as the current Catechism of the Catholic Church does not support anything you say. You have to go back to a catechism which has been superceded by the current one.

You are very selective in which Church documents you use.

You are nothing more than a rad-Trad protestant who denies the Teachings of the Church.

 

[CrusaderNY]

Such animosity I feel…I guess the question,which pertained to the “sacrifice of the mass”, is a hard one to answer. I guess the questions posed, which may indicate a breaking away from church doctrine and bring into question the validity of a sacrement, as defined by the Catechisms of the church is something someone like you (well after all you did call me the Pope so I guess I am allowed now to pose this question) does not want to go near, for fear of calling into question the entire establishment.
Actually, your answer “Well the Vatican says it is so…” is just the answer that the so called Modernists rebelled against and overthrew the establishment of the Traditional Church at Vatican II with their heretical theologians because they hated the fact that Popes such as Pope St Pius X told them “this is the answer and dont question it”. It is so funny how now the liberals are actually scared to question something that has a lot of merit and reason to question

But if you say as a Senior Member that it is way of course then I will obey your desires

porthos11:

Please move this argument to another thread or kill it completely. You’ve brought this way off-topic already.

The fact is, the Church says on her God-given authority that the current rite of the Mass is valid. Therefore, your words carry no weight with the faithful Catholics here. You’ve done nothing but be your own Pope. Ramble all you want, it will do no good.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

CrusaderNY:

Such animosity I feel…

It’s not animosity. It is a firm and unwavering comittment to truth. By claiming that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is now invalid, you by implication accuse each and every Catholic on earth of comitting idolatry. This is a serious claim which must be answered with equal seriousness.

 

[CrusaderNY]

I have that same committment, hence the reason I am not in the St Pius V or X societies, but why cant I question the liberalization of the church? Was this not done every day by the liberals and modernists of the 60’s? And even today, take a look at the non Catholic religion posts, Communion for non-Catholics, Catholics for Moslems and Jews and all sorts of heresy masked under the guise of “Ecumenism” is a polite and PC way of more and more liberalism and the destruction of the church. Recent poles indicated that over 22% of Catholics who used to attend church before Vatican II no longer do so because of the changes, when will this lunacy stop?
Dr. Colossus:

It’s not animosity. It is a firm and unwavering comittment to truth. By claiming that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is now invalid, you by implication accuse each and every Catholic on earth of comitting idolatry. This is a serious claim which must be answered with equal seriousness.

 

[porthos11]

You are free to question any liberalization or modernism. Such things exist and should be fought.

But I did not say I accept the current Mass because the Vatican says so. I accept the Mass because the CHURCH says so. I will not stand and have radtrads like you spit in God’s face by calling his duly promulgated Mass invalid, and therefore idolatrous by extension. As I said you’re your own Pope. I believe the REAL Pope, the one duly elected by the Church.

I and many others loyal to the Church suffer immensely because of the abuses going on in the liturgy. We do not make this a reason to bash the Bride of Christ and his Sacrifice as you do. Plus your lack of respect for the rest of us just annoys the heck out of me.

CrusaderNY:

I have that same committment, hence the reason I am not in the St Pius V or X societies, but why cant I question the liberalization of the church? Was this not done every day by the liberals and modernists of the 60’s? And even today, take a look at the non Catholic religion posts, Communion for non-Catholics, Catholics for Moslems and Jews and all sorts of heresy masked under the guise of “Ecumenism” is a polite and PC way of more and more liberalism and the destruction of the church. Recent poles indicated that over 22% of Catholics who used to attend church before Vatican II no longer do so because of the changes, when will this lunacy stop?