Saint Augustine

[Rae]

My brother-in-law, an Evangelical minister, denies that the
early church fathers are of any reliability, with the exception of Saint Augustine, who supposedly was SAVED in his sense of the term (not by the regeneration of Baptism, but faith alone).

What statement(s) did Augustine make that give this impression
to Evangelical Protestants?

I know that he made MANY statements which agree with the Catholic understanding of Baptism…and that he agreed with infant baptism, and other distinctly Catholic doctrines, and that he, himself, was baptized by Ambrose (who was paramount in his conversion)…of whom my brother-in-law does NOT believe is saved. HUH?

Why do Protestants give Augustine a break, when they don’t the others? More specifically, I again ask…what was the statement that makes them believe that Saint Augustine is SAVED (as in the one-time “I accept Jesus Christ as My Personal Lord and Savior”, faith-alone, type statement) way.

 

[Jadesfire20]

Rae:

My brother-in-law, an Evangelical minister, denies that the
early church fathers are of any reliability, with the exception of Saint Augustine, who supposedly was SAVED in his sense of the term (not by the regeneration of Baptism, but faith alone).

What statement(s) did Augustine make that give this impression
to Evangelical Protestants?

I know that he made MANY statements which agree with the Catholic understanding of Baptism…and that he agreed with infant baptism, and other distinctly Catholic doctrines, and that he, himself, was baptized by Ambrose (who was paramount in his conversion)…of whom my brother-in-law does NOT believe is saved. HUH?

Why do Protestants give Augustine a break, when they don’t the others? More specifically, I again ask…what was the statement that makes them believe that Saint Augustine is SAVED (as in the one-time “I accept Jesus Christ as My Personal Lord and Savior”, faith-alone, type statement) way.

I think your BIL is interepreting Augustine to fit his own theology.
Augustine wrote alot about the role of grace in salvation; he was combating heretics like Pelagius who was going around saying that you can obey God’s law completely on you own strength and that you don’t need grace to be saved. Augustine’s insight on grace got kinda lost during the middle ages until it was rediscovered by Luther, who read Augustine and somehow came to the same conclusion as you BIL!!:banghead:

I’m afraid I don’t know a specific quote that might lead your BIL to make the conclusion that Augustine believed in faith alone, but he absolutely did not.

Personally I think his rejection of all church fathers except Augustine is idiotic. Augustine lived in the late 300’s and he’s OK, but Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, who lived in the late 1st century and who were disciples of JOHN, the apostle…oh, noooo we can’t believe anything they say!

Sorry for my rant but I hate cafeteria patristics!

 

[Tanais]

Jadesfire20:

I think your BIL is interepreting Augustine to fit his own theology.
Augustine wrote alot about the role of grace in salvation; he was combating heretics like Pelagius who was going around saying that you can obey God’s law completely on you own strength and that you don’t need grace to be saved. Augustine’s insight on grace got kinda lost during the middle ages until it was rediscovered by Luther, who read Augustine and somehow came to the same conclusion as you BIL!!:banghead:

I’m afraid I don’t know a specific quote that might lead your BIL to make the conclusion that Augustine believed in faith alone, but he absolutely did not.

Personally I think his rejection of all church fathers except Augustine is idiotic. Augustine lived in the late 300’s and he’s OK, but Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, who lived in the late 1st century and who were disciples of JOHN, the apostle…oh, noooo we can’t believe anything they say!

Sorry for my rant but I hate cafeteria patristics!

I must say I agree with you.
First, Luther was an Augustinian monk and knew much of his writings. He viewed himself as Augustine since he was combating what he called “neo-plegianism”, i.e. the Church.

Secondly it is rather interesting that so many refuse to give credence to the early Church fathers. To me it is simple arrogance. Are we to assume the early Christians were so stupid, paganized, and heretical as to fall away immediately after the death of the apostles and then the true faith wasn’t rediscovered until 14 hundred years afterwards? If anyone should know exactly what is the authentic faith, it would be the apostolic fathers. However, it seems the reason they reject them is because, like in Luther’s case, they condemn them. The early Church Fathers were markedly Catholic.

What I also find interesting is that no matter how early or late you push the date for the apostazing of the Church, you can still find the Catholic doctrines existed well before that date. Constatine did no paganize the Church by making the papacy, since it is clearly mentioned prior to Constantine by the Fathers. This works for just about everything else as well.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Rae:

what was the statement that makes them believe that Saint Augustine is SAVED (as in the one-time “I accept Jesus Christ as My Personal Lord and Savior”, faith-alone, type statement) way.

One once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) website cites three works of Augustine:

On Rebuke and Grace,
newadvent.org/fathers/1511.htm

On the Predestination of the Saints,
newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm

On the Gift of Perseverance,
newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

In particular, the OSAS website pulls the following statement from chapter 13 of Augustine’s On Rebuke and Grace out of context to support the idea of ‘once saved always saved’:
“Whatsoever persons are through the riches of divine grace exempted from the original sentence of condemnation are undoubtedly brought to hear the Gospel, and when hearing they are caused to believe it, and are made likewise to endure to the end in the faith which works by love, and should they at any time go astray, they are recovered and set right again.”

In context, the above statement refers not to all Christians but only to those whom God gives the gift of perseverence onto eternal life. As Augustine says later in chapter 18:

“It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children–whom He has regenerated in Christ–to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also, when to children of another He forgives such wickedness, and, by the bestowal of His grace, makes them His own children.”