Saint Gregory the Theologian Quote

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Very fine quote from an Eastern Church Father! It was taught to me that the only one who uses freedom perfectly is God. God lives in perfect freedom because true freedom is not to do as I want but to do what is right. Since God is always right He lives in perfect freedom. Of course this can also be said to the only human who ever lived and had no sinned ever committed which was the Mother of God. I know that the Catholic Church regards Mary as sinless all of her life and I must agree with this teaching. If Mary was to be the Mother of God and to be the greatest saint ever there must have been granted to her a certain grace from God to help her to remain sinless. This grace granted to Mary she had cooperated fully to maintain this life without any sin. I assume the great Eastern saint St. Gregory the Theologian would have agreed to Mary’s life without sin had he been around today. Yet for the rest of us the teaching of the saint is most clear.
 
chimo said:
Very fine quote from an Eastern Church Father! It was taught to me that the only one who uses freedom perfectly is God. God lives in perfect freedom because true freedom is not to do as I want but to do what is right. Since God is always right He lives in perfect freedom. Of course this can also be said to the only human who ever lived and had no sinned ever committed which was the Mother of God. I know that the Catholic Church regards Mary as sinless all of her life and I must agree with this teaching. If Mary was to be the Mother of God and to be the greatest saint ever there must have been granted to her a certain grace from God to help her to remain sinless. This grace granted to Mary she had cooperated fully to maintain this life without any sin. I assume the great Eastern saint St. Gregory the Theologian would have agreed to Mary’s life without sin had he been around today. Yet for the rest of us the teaching of the saint is most clear.
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Does the Orthodox Church not teach this?
 
EIF5A said:
Does the Orthodox Church not teach this?
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The Orthodox Church teaches Mary was made sinless at the Annunciation. I must disagree with my Mother Church on the lines when one tastes sin one is going to sin until the person dies. Mary, says the Orthodox Church, would have sinned before the Annunciation but that God had cleansed her when she said yes. I do not think that a person who has tasted sin can ever become sinless later on so that if Mary was to remain sinless she must have received a grace of God much earlier than the Annunciation which the Catholic Church has said was placed at her conception. This makes more sense. Both Churches teaches that Mary had remained sinless since the Lord Jesus was conceived in her womb but I suspect that the teaching of how and when Mary became sinless is better taught from the perspective of the Church of Rome.
 
I’ve never heard the teaching that she sinned prior to the annunciation.
 
chimo said:
The Orthodox Church teaches Mary was made sinless at the Annunciation. I must disagree with my Mother Church on the lines when one tastes sin one is going to sin until the person dies. Mary, says the Orthodox Church, would have sinned before the Annunciation but that God had cleansed her when she said yes. I do not think that a person who has tasted sin can ever become sinless later on so that if Mary was to remain sinless she must have received a grace of God much earlier than the Annunciation which the Catholic Church has said was placed at her conception. This makes more sense. Both Churches teaches that Mary had remained sinless since the Lord Jesus was conceived in her womb but I suspect that the teaching of how and when Mary became sinless is better taught from the perspective of the Church of Rome.
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One needs to be careful in interpreting what the Eastern Fathers meant by purification. Though it is true that a few seemed to teach that she committed minor sins (St. John Chrysostom, for example), her having been purified at the Annunciation does not itself imply that she was sinful before, just as her participation in the purification ritual after giving birth to Christ did not imply that she fell into corruption during childbirth.
 
If Eastern Orthodox Church believes she was purified at the Annunciation this would imply she had committed sin prior to this event. There is no need for a purification if there was no sin involved. This is only a pious belief. The Catholic Church had reinforced its teaching for Mary to be sinless all of her life by saying God had given her a special grace at her conception. I had never met any Orthodox to agree with the Catholic teaching. Everyone agrees with the Annunciation, I mean the ones I had met. However it is common for some Orthodox to accept the Catholic teaching. Again it is because the Orthodox do not have as yet any formal doctrine on Mary’s living her life without sin that enables many views within the Orthodox Church.
 
chimo said:
If Eastern Orthodox Church believes she was purified at the Annunciation this would imply she had committed sin prior to this event. There is no need for a purification if there was no sin involved. This is only a pious belief. The Catholic Church had reinforced its teaching for Mary to be sinless all of her life by saying God had given her a special grace at her conception. I had never met any Orthodox to agree with the Catholic teaching. Everyone agrees with the Annunciation, I mean the ones I had met. However it is common for some Orthodox to accept the Catholic teaching. Again it is because the Orthodox do not have as yet any formal doctrine on Mary’s living her life without sin that enables many views within the Orthodox Church.
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I disagree, because she also was purified after giving birth. Normally, this would mean that she had suffered corruption in giving birth, but we know that she did not suffer corruption in birth. Furthermore, St. Gregory Palamas taught that the Theotokos was the first to experience the light of the Resurrection, by which she was purified, which likewise would imply by your logic that the Theotokos had sinned after giving birth. But there is a very particular meaning of purification hearkening back to St. Gregory the Theologian that the Eastern Fathers are using, which refers not to the removal of sin, but to the economic increase of grace or to the manifestation of an external glory which is a sign of predestination.
 
Cavaradossi said:
I disagree, because she also was purified after giving birth. Normally, this would mean that she had suffered corruption in giving birth, but we know that she did not suffer corruption in birth. Furthermore, St. Gregory Palamas taught that the Theotokos was the first to experience the light of the Resurrection, by which she was purified, which likewise would imply by your logic that the Theotokos had sinned after giving birth. But there is a very particular meaning of purification hearkening back to St. Gregory the Theologian that the Eastern Fathers are using, which refers not to the removal of sin, but to the economic increase of grace or to the manifestation of an external glory which is a sign of predestination.
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I do not know what you are saying. Nothing you have said has no bearing on what I said. Perhaps you do not understand my points. I had never said at any time Mary had sinned. Look at my posts to read it slowly. If it possible to explain what I meant in my previous posts I will try. I do not believe Mary received the graces of God for instance during her life like we do when we receive the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments. So the question is when did Mary receive the Holy Spirit. That is the only thing that matters. The Orthodox say at the Annunciation while the Catholics say at her conception.

It is not that difficult to understand this. Mary received from the first moment of her existence which was her conception the Fullness of the Holy Spirit. This Fullness is incredible because it is the Fullness anyone will be able to obtain in this life, that is we are called to achieve this Fullness if we cooperate with God. We do not receive this Fullness initially for we must work to acquire it. When we are baptised we receive only a deposit of the Holy Spirit which is never what we call Fullness. That is why we need more deposits such as in Confirmation and especially in receiving the Lord Jesus in Holy Communion at the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. Every time we receive Jesus, He deposits another grace of the Holy Spirit in us which will increase our level of sanctity. Our quest in life is this acquisition of the Holy Spirit when Fullness can be obtained. For Mary this was not necessary as she had received all of the Fullness all at once of the Holy Spirit given to her by God at the first moment of her conception.

You cannot, and I repeat it is impossible to taste sin and then be cleansed by God never to sin. God has to give to the person who is living on this earth enough graces from the person’s conception in order for that person not to sin in this life. This is not a difficult teaching to understand. Mary in fact was treated by God as do most Orthodox are treated. Every Orthodox as a baby receives all the Sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist all at the same time. This enables each Orthodox Christian to have a great head start. Every Orthodox Christian from this form of initiation has more of the Holy Spirit in them than any Catholic of the same age. This is what God had given to Mary, a great head start by giving not only partial deposits of the Holy Spirit as it is given for us in Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist but the Fullness of the Holy Spirit.
 
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