Saints and Hell in Orthodoxy

  • Thread starter Thread starter adstrinity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I still don’t see a problem with the use of the word “punishment”. Sin is seen as an act against God. Any measure taken to correct this would be considered punishment. Punishment in and of itself does not have to be negative, and certainly can have healing value. An example: Someone commits burglary and unable to pay back what he stole, is sentenced to work in a homeless shelter soup kitchen. He may achieve tremendous spiritual development and appreciation for how hard life can be. He may even enjoy his work there, but at the end of the day he is still being punished. This is the general idea of purgatory, that souls may be healed from the afflictions of sin. The fact that the Latin Church uses the imagery of crime and punishent is a product of the legalistic society and culture in which it developed. Why there is anything wrong with this is beyond me.
Sin is not “an act against God”. Sin in Greek means “missing the mark”…what is the mark?
We humans were created both in the Image and Likeness of God.
Missing the Mark is not living completely in the Image and Likeness of God aka not being like God: Loving, Merciful, Perfect and Holy.
The Theotokos and Jesus are the only two human beings who’ve ever lived that did not “miss the mark” they did not sin because they remained in God’s Image and Likeness.

(side note: Jesus has two Natures: Divine and Human. I only mentioned His humanity above because He is fully human as well as fully divine. I list this side note so that no one will falsely accuse me of thinking that Jesus is not part of the Holy Trinity.)
 
Sorry, but the terms “punishment” and “healing” don’t really seem like a simple difference of semantics. Someone “punished” would be locked behind bars in jail serving a sentence being in constant fear of being attacked by other prisoners - remaining very careful with the soap; someone being “healed” on the other hand would be in a hospital with 24/7 care by nurses, doctors and visits from family members and friends - everyone there to help & encourage him. Two totally different situations.
Only to those who view it that way.

I can be healed in jail. I can live in fear and realize that I used to be that way. I can be injured and still treated. I can be punished in a hospital. I can be punished to work in a hospital. I can be brutilized getting treatment in a hospital.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.

(Footnote: Lawlessness: a reference to the activity of the antichrist, so it is expressed as hostility toward God and a rejection of Christ. The author goes on to contrast the states of sin and righteousness. Christians do not escape sin but realize that when they sin they cease to have fellowship with God. Virtue and sin distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil.)

Those who sin brake God’s Law.

Etymology

The word sin derives from Old English synn, recorded in use as early as the 9th century.[1] The same root appears in several other Germanic languages, e.g. Old Norse synd, or German Sünde. There is presumably a Germanic root sun(d)jō (literally “it is true”).[2] The word may derive, ultimately, from **es-, one of the Proto-Indo-European roots that meant “to be,” and is a present participle, “being.” Latin, also has an old present participle of esse in the word sons, sont-, which came to mean “guilty” in Latin.citation needed The root meaning would appear to be, “it is true;” that is, “the charge has been proven.”
The Greek word hamartia (ἁμαρτία) is usually translated as sin in the New Testament. In Classical Greek, it means “to miss the mark” or “to miss the target” which was also used in Old English archery.[3] In Koine Greek, which was spoken in the time of the New Testament, however, this translation is not adequate.[4] In other research, this word has been associated with the “hem” of a garment. citation needed
Sin” was also the name of the Babylonian/Akkadian moon god. Some students in recent times have postulated a connection with the modern English word "sin"citation needed , but this is likely a folk-etymology. Note that the Babylonian/Akkadian deity name Sin is derived from the Sumerian moon god Nanna - Suen. In the Sumerian myth “Enlil and Ninlil” [4] Suen is trapped in the underworld. Sons of Enlil and Ninlil are given as substitutes to allow for the ascent of Suen.

answers.com/topic/sin (The Wikipedia exerpt) Same article, further on:

Jewish views of sin

Judaism regards the violation of divine commandments to be a sin. Judaism teaches that sin is an act, and not a state of being. Humankind was not created with an inclination to do evil, but has that inclination “from his youth”(Genesis 8:21). It should be noted that if indeed this was the case, that God had created humans sinfully, it would criticize the absolute goodness of God that all three Abrahamic religions profess. People do have the ability to master this inclination (Genesis 4:7) and choose good over evil (conscience)(Psalm 37:27).[5] Judaism uses the term “sin” to include violations of Jewish law that are not necessarily a lapse in morality. According to the Jewish encyclopedia, “Man is responsible for sin because he is endowed with free will (“behirah”); yet he is by nature frail, and the tendency of the mind is to evil: “For the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Gen. viii. 21; Yoma 20a; Sanh. 105a). Therefore God in His mercy allowed people to repent and be forgiven.”[6] Judaism holds that all people sin at various points in their lives, and hold that God tempers justice with mercy.
The generic Hebrew word for any kind of sin is avera (literally: transgression). Based on verses in the Hebrew Bible, Judaism describes three levels of sin. There are three categories of a person who commits an avera. The first one is someone who does an avera intentionally, or “B’mezid.” This is the most serious category. The second is one who did an avera by accident. This is called “B’shogeg,” and while the person is still responsible for their action it is considered less serious. The third category is someone who is a “Tinok Shenishba”, which is a person who was raised in an environment that was assimilated or non-Jewish, and is not aware of the proper Jewish laws, or halacha. This person is not held accountable for their actions.
  • Pesha (deliberate sin; in modern Hebrew: crime) or Mered (lit.: rebellion) - An intentional sin; an action committed in deliberate defiance of God; (Strong’s Concordance :H6588 (פשע pesha’, peh’shah). According to Strong it comes from the root (:H6586); rebellion, transgression, trespass.
  • Avon (lit.: iniquity) - This is a sin of lust or uncontrollable emotion. It is a sin done knowingly, but not done to defy God; (Strong’s Concordance :H5771 (avon, aw-vone). According to Strong it comes from the root (:H5753); meaning perversity, moral evil:–fault, iniquity, mischief.
  • Cheit - This is an unintentional sin, crime or fault. (Strong’s Concordance :H2399 (חַטָּא chate). According to Strong it comes from the root khaw-taw (:H2398, H2403) meaning “to miss, to err from the mark (speaking of an archer), to sin, to stumble.”
 
I do. 🤷

That is legalistic double talk.
Yes.
Mickey,

This is getting old. It is not legalistic double-talk if you actually listen to the reasoning behind it rather than just dismissing it out right. I clearly gave an example of punishment that was not negative. When you have proven to me your fluency in Latin (including semantics and pragmatics) and complete familiarity with Latin culture, I will begin to take your assertions on the Latin Church more seriously.

Besides, this is all pointless. You and I already made an agreement that both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches pray to release the dead from Barbara Streisand concerts.
 
Sorry, but the terms “punishment” and “healing” don’t really seem like a simple difference of semantics. Someone “punished” would be locked behind bars in jail serving a sentence being in constant fear of being attacked by other prisoners - remaining very careful with the soap; someone being “healed” on the other hand would be in a hospital with 24/7 care by nurses, doctors and visits from family members and friends - everyone there to help & encourage him. Two totally different situations.
I never argued that the terms themselves had anything to do with one another. I just implied that punishment and healing can take place in the same context, as per my example. Of course, you will continue to see it how you want to, so I’m not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
 
Are the Saints in Hell?
I think that some things that have been said by Catholic posters on this thread have been mocking and/or polemical against the Orthodox; but I don’t think this question is. I think you’re perhaps sensing confusion and/or frustration, without giving buffgbob the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps one of the most unfortunate thing about internet discussion forums like this one is that we can get so used to rudeness and what-not, that we start to assume it in every unclear post.
 
It is not legalistic double-talk if you actually listen to the reasoning behind it rather than just dismissing it out right. I clearly gave an example of punishment that was not negative. When you have proven to me your fluency in Latin (including semantics and pragmatics) and complete familiarity with Latin culture, I will begin to take your assertions on the Latin Church more seriously.
Well—punishment seems fairly clear to me. I do not think I have to be a Latin scholar to undersatnd it. I suppose being Roman Catholic for 38 years does not help me–becuase I was taught strange teachings by nuns and priests in my childhood. 😦 Furthermore, I am not trying to convince you of anything and I am not trying to prove things through empirical evidence. I will say this much–I believe that purgatory is the one issue that could be solved relatively quickly if the Churches ever became serious about re-unification. I wish I could say as much about Filioque, IC, and Infallibility/supremacy.
Besides, this is all pointless. You and I already made an agreement that both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches pray to release the dead from Barbara Streisand concerts.
:rotfl:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top