Saints and their deeds

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Hi,

I have been thinking about various saints throughout the history of the Church and the deeds that they did… I know that saints were supposed to have lived exemplary lives, but there were some who have been directly responsible for things that are very wrong. For example St. Dominic, the one who brought us the rosary, was apparently known for presiding over auto-de-fe ceremonies in which heretics were tortured and violently executed. St. Thomas Aquinas apparently also approved of this practice. Also St. Cyril of Alexandria was reported to have persecuted Jews in Alexandria. I am wondering, how can these men be canonized as saints after having done these things?
 
Apparently, they were canonized because those who canonized them approved of the deeds.
 
I am wondering, how can these men be canonized as saints after having done these things?
Repentance. Metanoia. We are all called to change, to transform, to become one with Christ. Look at St Paul: he ruthlessly persecuted Christians before he hit the road to Damascus.
 
we are all sinners. including the saints. the only difference was that saints were sin less. but everyone of us is fallible.
 
we are all sinners. including the saints. the only difference was that saints were sin less. but everyone of us is fallible.
I’m not sure what you say makes any sense, especially about saints being sinless.The saints were not sinless. They were sinners just like you and me.
 
But my point is, these were acts that were considered to be of good faith, and were not necessarily repented of, as the saints would have gone to their death believing that their atrocities were actually good works. Having done some research, I have read that there is dispute, for example, about whether or not Dominic personally oversaw/participated in the auto-de-fe ceremonies or whether Cyril was personally responsible for the mistreatment of the Jews… but for example, St. Thomas Aquinas believed that the act of burning heretics was justifiable because it would prevent the spread of heresy and thus prevent the damnation of many souls… however such actions are gravely contrary to the teachings of Christ… one of the requirements for sainthood is that they must be exemplary and not teach things that are incorrect, etc. and murdering someone for their beliefs is pretty gravely contrary to Christianity. Unless he repented of such a position, or such a deed (if he was ever responsible for it) then how could he be canonized a saint?
 
+JMJ+

How about some more quotes from other saints?

“The only way to argue with a blasphemer is by running your sword through his bowels, as far as it will go.” — St. Louis IX, King of France

“I entirely detest heretics, and as Magistrate do promise assiduously to perform my duty in investigating them. Heresy is a kind of treason, and if a heretic persisteth in his false belief, he may be handed over to be burned.” — St. Thomas More

“Error will never be suppressed unless the criminal elements of depravity be consumed in flames.” — Pope Clement XII

“That it is against the will of the Spirit to burn heretics at the stake is condemned as false.” — Pope Leo X

“Even if my own father were a heretic, I would gather the wood to burn him at the stake.” — Pope Paul IV

St. Thomas Aquinas himself said:

"Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. " (source)

Now why this macabre attitude by the Church on heretics? Please read this: Aquinas and the Heretics.
 
But my point is, these were acts that were considered to be of good faith, and were not necessarily repented of, as the saints would have gone to their death believing that their atrocities were actually good works. Having done some research, I have read that there is dispute, for example, about whether or not Dominic personally oversaw/participated in the auto-de-fe ceremonies or whether Cyril was personally responsible for the mistreatment of the Jews… but for example, St. Thomas Aquinas believed that the act of burning heretics was justifiable because it would prevent the spread of heresy and thus prevent the damnation of many souls… however such actions are gravely contrary to the teachings of Christ… one of the requirements for sainthood is that they must be exemplary and not teach things that are incorrect, etc. and murdering someone for their beliefs is pretty gravely contrary to Christianity. Unless he repented of such a position, or such a deed (if he was ever responsible for it) then how could he be canonized a saint?
Saints were not saints while they were alive. They were sinners. Every single instance of their lives was not untouched by sin – or even by incorrect belief.

Where did you get your requirements for sainthood from? It would exclude many saints, St Paul is one outstanding example of someone murdering others for their beliefs (as Saul, he persecuted and murdered the earliest Christians before his conversion). And there are others.

Perhaps your view of the earthly life of saints is clouded by romantic, treacly notions of holiness? I’d recommend reading Saints Behaving Badly: The Cutthroats, Crooks, Trollops, Con Men, and Devil-Worshippers Who Became Saints as a way to disabuse yourself of that notion and to see God’s grace at work even within the worst of us.

Saints are not born, they are made. And many, as Saints Behaving Badly reveals, were made of very rough materials indeed. The first book to lay bare the less than saintly behavior of thirty-two venerated holy men and women, it presents the scandalous, spicy, and sleazy detours they took on the road to sainthood.

In nineteenth- and twentieth-century writings about the lives of the saints, authors tended to go out of their way to sanitize their stories, often glossing over the more embarrassing cases with phrases such as, “he/she was once a great sinner.” In the early centuries of the Church and throughout the Middle Ages, however, writers took a more candid and spirited approach to portraying the saints. Exploring sources from a wide range of periods and places, Thomas Craughwell discovered a veritable rogues gallery of sinners-turned-saint. There’s St. Olga, who unleashed a bloodbath on her husband’s assassins; St. Mary of Egypt, who trolled the streets looking for new sexual conquests; and Thomas Becket, who despite his vast riches refused to give his cloak to a man freezing to death in the street.

Written with wit and respect (each profile ends with what inspired the saint to give up his or her wicked ways) and illustrated with amusing caricatures, Saints Behaving Badly will entertain, inform, and even inspire Catholic readers across America.

The saints were very human in many respects.
 
Also note that saint can be used in a more general sense of someone who is in heaven. The sense that you’re using it in this thread refers to universal saints – those saints officially recognized by the Church. The Church realizes that there are saints in heaven whom she doesn’t officially canonize.

For the general use of the term, we honor all saints, known and unknown, on All Saints’ Day, Nov 1.
 
Where did you get your requirements for sainthood from? It would exclude many saints, St Paul is one outstanding example of someone murdering others for their beliefs (as Saul, he persecuted and murdered the earliest Christians before his conversion). And there are others.
St. Paul repented of his actions and became the greatest evangelist that ever lived. Did you read what I have written? These men persisted in the practice of burning heretics until the day of their death. In other words, they would have persisted in mortal sin until their death without sign of repentance, which by the Church’s own standard would mean they were condemned. Only the repentant can be saved.
 
St. Paul repented of his actions and became the greatest evangelist that ever lived. Did you read what I have written? These men persisted in the practice of burning heretics until the day of their death. In other words, they would have persisted in mortal sin until their death without sign of repentance, which by the Church’s own standard would mean they were condemned. Only the repentant can be saved.
Sorry, I didn’t realize that you thought I wasn’t reading your posts.

Some possibilities …

– They were repentant at death. Last Rites has confession as a part of it. Not being there, I can’t say if this was the case. Perhaps you have some insight?

– Purgatory

– They were not repentant and the Church has it terribly wrong about these saints, and your judgment is absolutely correct about them and the state of their souls upon death.
 
Sorry, I didn’t realize that you thought I wasn’t reading your posts.

Some possibilities …

– They were repentant at death. Last Rites has confession as a part of it. Not being there, I can’t say if this was the case. Perhaps you have some insight?

– Purgatory

– They were not repentant and the Church has it terribly wrong about these saints, and your judgment is absolutely correct about them and the state of their souls upon death.
Further possibility: What they did was not sinful. . .

I know that in our 21st century times we cannot believe that it could EVER be possible that a legitimate STATE action (none of these people had the sentence carried out by "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH) done centuries ago could be morally defensible THEN if it is not now.

So let’s see. Hmmm. By that logic, punishment of people for procuring an ABORTION could NEVER have been morally right. You see today we do not punish people for seeking an abortion. We help them do it, because abortion is morally right now. Therefore it was always morally right. All those people back in 1920 and 1750 and 1310 who were imprisoned or even put to death for procuring an abortion were the victims and the Church which allowed the STATE to put these people to death was morally wrong, and all the priests etc. who allowed this to happen were guilty of mortal sin. Right?

No wait. . .😃
 
Further possibility: What they did was not sinful. . .

I know that in our 21st century times we cannot believe that it could EVER be possible that a legitimate STATE action (none of these people had the sentence carried out by "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH) done centuries ago could be morally defensible THEN if it is not now.

So let’s see. Hmmm. By that logic, punishment of people for procuring an ABORTION could NEVER have been morally right. You see today we do not punish people for seeking an abortion. We help them do it, because abortion is morally right now. Therefore it was always morally right. All those people back in 1920 and 1750 and 1310 who were imprisoned or even put to death for procuring an abortion were the victims and the Church which allowed the STATE to put these people to death was morally wrong, and all the priests etc. who allowed this to happen were guilty of mortal sin. Right?

No wait. . .😃
This isn’t a matter o state legality it is a matter of absolute morality. If you are Catholic then you must believe that morality is absolute. Nobody here is contesting the morality of abortion, all Catholics should see that abortion is grossly immoral, as stated by the Church, and yes our government is unjust for not protecting the unborn. The question being raised is, is the burning of heretics absolutely immoral, and if so, should that not impede their canonization as saints?
 
Sorry, I didn’t realize that you thought I wasn’t reading your posts.

Some possibilities …

– They were repentant at death. Last Rites has confession as a part of it. Not being there, I can’t say if this was the case. Perhaps you have some insight?

– Purgatory

– They were not repentant and the Church has it terribly wrong about these saints, and your judgment is absolutely correct about them and the state of their souls upon death.
  1. I don’t need insight. Their deeds are clear.
  2. By definition a saint is one who has achieved holiness and thus has no need of purgatory.
  3. Again, I have no judgment, I am asking questions based on the facts and our understanding of morality, especially as the Church dictates. Does the Church currently have a position on the practice of burning heretics, and if so, what is its position? Has this always been the case?
The only valid explanation I can think of is that these saints had an undeveloped understanding of morality and thought they were doing the right thing, in good conscience, and thus were not culpable for their actions… though this seems like a bit of a stretch and could be a cop-out for whenever Christianity messes something up, or could be a slippery slope for justifying other things. It’s hard for me to believe that such an action is done in accordance with one’s conscience.

From what I have read, history really seems to imply that the Church views morality as something that changes with time, i.e. relative morality.
 
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