Saints Prayers seem to have worship?

[ni8_shadow]

Atemi, you stated that James was talking about Saints who are still alive. Is there a Bible verse that says once in Heaven a Saint can not or even should not pray for those members of the Body of Christ who have not yet merited Heaven?

 

[Atemi]

I don’t care how long your stint of Catholicism was, if you think we give Mary or the Saints anything that is due to God alone then you are entirely mistaken in your understanding of the faith.

Should I have expected you to say I am right and leave the RCC?

No.

I know what Catholicism says it teaches, but that is not the issue here.

If I honestly worshipped Mary or the Saints I’d be loudly and proudly saying so,

Not if you were unaware that you did so.

If the Apostle John could erroneously worship an angel he KNEW was not God, then how easy is it for the average Christian?

I would venture to say that if the great Apostle John can make such an error at the end of his life and after immense personal instruction by Christ Himself, then any of us can.

and certainly I’d fear their wrath if I denied that they were divine!

Nobody said anything about you thinking anyone besides God is divine.

That is not the point.

 

[Atemi]

Atemi, you stated that James was talking about Saints who are still alive.

Yes he was.

Is there a Bible verse that says once in Heaven a Saint can not or even should not pray for those members of the Body of Christ who have not yet merited Heaven?

Nope.

 

[jemfinch]

I know what Catholicism says it teaches, but that is not the issue here.

So now you’re claiming that what Catholicism teaches and what it “says it teaches” are two different things?

Not if you were unaware that you did so.

Worship is an intentional act. It is impossible to worship without being aware of the fact that one is worshipping. If one is unaware of worshipping, one is not worshipping.

If the Apostle John could erroneously worship an angel he KNEW was not God, then how easy is it for the average Christian?

First, how do you know that John knew the angel was not God? I think it’s a pretty safe bet that John didn’t know at the time that the angel was God, or else he wouldn’t have fallen to worship him!

And, apart from your unsubstantiated claim that John was an idolater, we also know from Scripture that John knew he was worshipping. Revelation 22 says, "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, ‘You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.’ " John feel down with the explicit purpose of worshipping. He didn’t “accidentally” worship.

I would venture to say that if the great Apostle John can make such an error at the end of his life and after immense personal instruction by Christ Himself, then any of us can.

The next time an angel appears to me and I think it’s God and I fall down to worship him and he says to me, “Hey, wait, I’m not God,” I’ll definitely keep that in mind as I’m getting up.

One thing I won’t concern myself with is this preposterous claim that I can worship by accident. That’s just ridiculous.

Jeremy

 

[LilyM]

Not if you were unaware that you did so.

If the Apostle John could erroneously worship an angel he KNEW was not God, then how easy is it for the average Christian?

I would venture to say that if the great Apostle John can make such an error at the end of his life and after immense personal instruction by Christ Himself, then any of us can.

No-one can unknowingly worship someone or something. Worship is a deliberate act and attitude of the mind and the will, not a mere gesture of the mouth or body.

In fact God says only that the opposite is possible - ‘this people worship me with their lips but their heart is far from me’. So you can go through the motions of worship but not be truly worshipping in your heart. The opposite, however, is impossible.

If I say and mean that I worship God and him alone as my God then that’s the truth.

The issue of John has been dealt with by the previous poster. There’s no certainty that he knew at the time that the angel was merely an angel and not God. He was probably mistaken. As a good Jew and then a good Christian he would have known better than to knowingly worship an angel. And clearly neither the angel nor God was extremely perturbed - the angel simply set him straight with a friendly word rather than berating him for idolatry!

In any event the intent to worship was certainly there. If he had merely fallen at the angel’s feet WITHOUT intent to worship he would’ve been doing no more than Jacob did to Esau, and Esther for her King and countless others.

I certainly never in my life have meant anything close to worshipping Mary or any Saint. Therefore I HAVEN’T worshipped them.

Nobody said anything about you thinking anyone besides God is divine.

That is not the point.

It’s the precise point - that we are ascribing the attributes of divinity, due to God alone, to Mary - that we are addressing her in a manner fitting only for divinity alone. Thus we are treating her as divine - why would we do so except that we think she is divine?

 

[Atemi]

Worship is an intentional act. It is impossible to worship without being aware of the fact that one is worshipping. If one is unaware of worshipping, one is not worshipping.

True.

The next thing you need to do is define “worship.”

As a Catholic, I was taught that “worship” is only “worship” if you believe the object of your obeisance is a god other than God. That is totally insufficient.

First, how do you know that John knew the angel was not God? I think it’s a pretty safe bet that John didn’t know at the time that the angel was God, or else he wouldn’t have fallen to worship him!

John identified this as an angel numerous times before he paid homage.

He easily and specifically identified angels, saints, elders, Jesus, and God the Father in Revelation. To claim he suddenly got confused is a stretch of biblical proportions…literally.

 

[LilyM]

John identified this as an angel numerous times before he paid homage.

He easily and specifically identified angels, saints, elders, Jesus, and God the Father in Revelation. To claim he suddenly got confused is a stretch of biblical proportions…literally.

Of course AFTER this being tells John he’s an angel, then in hindsight John is going to go back over what he wrote and scrub out the mistaken references to God and put in angel. It’s called editing!

Besides which, who exactly is the ‘one like a son of Man’ with the white hair, fiery eyes, the sword coming out of his mouth and so forth in the first chapter??? An angel? God the Father? Jesus? That’s not an easy or specific identification at all.

 

[Atemi]

Of course AFTER this being tells John he’s an angel, then in hindsight John is going to go back over what he wrote and scrub out the mistaken references to God and put in angel. It’s called editing!

Is this the lengths we must go?

He did not go back and edit his book, Lily. He took an eraser to Revelation?

He even said " I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel."

He didn’t say “the angel I thought was God” or anything like that.

Even after the angel said “Woship God” there is no shock that he was not worshipping God all along. John didn’t say “But aren’t you God?”

No. None of that.

Also, John made the same mistake twice.

So he was corrected the first time by the angel…and then John went right back and thought that same angel was God?

This is not believable.

…

 

[Atemi]

No-one can unknowingly worship someone or something.

If you define “worship” as you please, then you can.

Worship is a deliberate act and attitude of the mind and the will, not a mere gesture of the mouth or body.

Agreed.

If I say and mean that I worship God and him alone as my God then that’s the truth.

I don’t doubt you believe that. I would say the same.

We are not talking about you personally, Lily.

The issue of John has been dealt with by the previous poster. There’s no certainty that he knew at the time that the angel was merely an angel and not God. He was probably mistaken.

There is really no room for such a conclusion. He gave us no such option.

As a good Jew and then a good Christian he would have known better than to knowingly worship an angel.

Obviously not. He admitted as much…twice.

Cornelius was a very godly man himself. How do you suppose he worshipped Peter?

Do you really think that Cornelius mistook Peter for God Himself?

No.

There is no room for this.

The point is that even godly people can indeed worship those they should not in any fashion.

And clearly neither the angel nor God was extremely perturbed - the angel simply set him straight with a friendly word rather than berating him for idolatry!

The point is that he did so and it was wrong. That is all that is pertinent.

In any event the intent to worship was certainly there. If he had merely fallen at the angel’s feet WITHOUT intent to worship he would’ve been doing no more than Jacob did to Esau, and Esther for her King and countless others.

I certainly never in my life have meant anything close to worshipping Mary or any Saint. Therefore I HAVEN’T worshipped them.

Again you need to be reminded that this issue does not revolve around you. This is not about you personally.

What I have witnessed and what I was taught tells a different story.

It’s the precise point - that we are ascribing the attributes of divinity, due to God alone, to Mary - that we are addressing her in a manner fitting only for divinity alone.

Yes.

But that doesn’t mean you must believe Mary to be God to do so.

 

[Truthstalker]

Listening to Madrid and White go at it about Comm of Saints. White quotes a prayer to a Saint having the words to some effect “We place our souls in your care” or " We entrust our souls to you."

I kinda had a problem with prayers like that I have seen. How can we refute the idolotry accusation when some prayers to certain Saints have language like this?

I think there is a confusion on several things.

One is that we do place our souls in the care of other people on earth: pastors, spiritual directors, teachers. Parents are responsible for the spiritual care of their children. None of this is worship; none of this is improper. To ask an expert for help is wise. Those in heaven are without sin, are powerful intercessors, have their theology correct, and, being loving Christians, are concerned about their brothers and sisters still struggling as they struggled. To trust someone in that position is wise; I see nothing wrong, and if those resources are available, it is folly to ignore them.

The second thing concerns the nature of what we ascribe to Mary, in particular. The accusation is that Catholics ascribe attributes to Mary that only belong to God. So what is it that only belongs to God that He will never give anyone else? We launch immediately into theological territory of immense depth concerning the nature and essence of God. Unfortunately these arguments are usually shallow because we argue about whether such and such attribute belongs to God. All things come from God. The Lord’s prayer has “give us this day our daily bread” in it. You could argue then that a child is worshipping his mother when he asks for lunch. God is our teacher, and we have no need for anyone else to teach us, if we take 1 John too closely. So pastors and teachers are arrogating the divine when they teach Scripture. The argument quickly becomes absurd.

What is it that essentially belongs to God that Catholics attribute to Mary that cannot be bequeathed to anything created? Let’s start there. No one says Mary is the source of all power, is equal to God, is uncreated, is begotten by the Father, or together with the Father and Son is to be worshipped and glorified. There is an essential difference that needs to be elucidated or this thread will descend into another fruitless argument: “Catholics worship Mary” “No we don’t” “yes you do” “no” “yes” ad nauseum.

 

[jemfinch]

As a Catholic, I was taught that “worship” is only “worship” if you believe the object of your obeisance is a god other than God. That is totally insufficient.

Instead of merely asserting your opinion, perhaps you could, you know, provide an argument for it. What’s insufficient about this definition, and what do you find to be a sufficient definition of “worship”?

John identified this as an angel numerous times before he paid homage.

Yes, of course he did. He wrote down the vision after He had it, and clearly, because of this correction, knew it to be an angel.

He easily and specifically identified angels, saints, elders, Jesus, and God the Father in Revelation. To claim he suddenly got confused is a stretch of biblical proportions…literally.

Not at all. The angel had just said, "And he said to me, ‘These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.’ " Not the clearest statement to understand, is it? It certainly doesn’t parse unambiguously: the pronoun “I” could have as its antecedent the angel, or the Lord. I understand why John got confused.

Is this the lengths we must go?

Honestly, I should ask you the same the thing. Your following argument is just plain disinegenious.

He did not go back and edit his book, Lily. He took an eraser to Revelation?

No, but HE DIDN’T WRITE WHILE HAVING THE VISION. He had the vision, and he wrote AFTER the vision what he had seen. By the completion of the vision, he clearly knew that it was an angel leading him around. While in the midst of the vision, he clearly did not, or he would not have bowed down to worship it!

Also, John made the same mistake twice.

Chapter and verse, please.

Cornelius was a very godly man himself. How do you suppose he worshipped Peter?

Do you really think that Cornelius mistook Peter for God Himself?

Cornelius was still a Gentile, a pagan who came from a polytheistic culture where the gods took the form of men with regularity. Yes, I think Cornelius mistook Peter for a god.

There is no room for this.

What’s there’s really no room for is your constant claims “There is no room for this” when you’re just talking about your particular, prejudiced and far from compelling interpretations of Scripture.

The point is that even godly people can indeed worship those they should not in any fashion.

That’s not the point at all! No one’s arguing that. We’re arguing against your claim that we can worship accidentally, without knowing we’re worshipping. That’s the foundation for your specious accusation that by certain prayers to the saints, we’re worshipping them, even if we don’t know it.

The point is that he did so and it was wrong. That is all that is pertinent.

Splendid effort to try to go back and change what this argument is actually about, but it won’t work here. That John bowed down to worship the angel isn’t at all pertinent. What’s pertinent is that he knew he was doing so when he did it (he even gave “to worship” as his motive for falling down!) thus contradicting your claim that he worshipped accidentally.

What I have witnessed and what I was taught tells a different story.

By all means, refer us to these fantastic teachings of the Catholic Church that indicate that worship can be given to anyone other than God Himself in the three persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Until then, I doubt anyone here has any interest whatsoever in what you “have witnessed and were taught.”

Jeremy

 

[Michael_Francis]

Premise advanced and refuted.
Question answered. Thread closed.