Salary under the table

[imo]

Hello. I would like to know if there is a (grave?) sin when someone receives its salary under the table, without the due taxes being properly collected. In Brazil it is the responsibility if company to collect this taxes and it is automatically disconted in the paycheck. So, since it would be impossible to convince the company to pay me rightfully since this is an widespread and long stablished policy here in my country, how am I to blame? I can’t just pay any other way. I mean I could leave my job, but I am 100% sure I would never find a good job like this and my wife is pregnant.

 

[CarmeliteKnight]

I can’t just pay any other way.

This part intrests me. When tax days comes, does Brazil’s tax collection agency ask you if you have any undeclared income? In America the IRS (taxman) does and we are supposed to declare any undeclared income in that regard. If the taxman doesn’t, that is an oversight on his part. In theory you wouldn’t be held responsible if the taxman doesn’t ask you. Mind you im not a preist, so take what I tell you with a grain of salt.

I would still encourage you to talk it over with your preist and see what he says.

 

[imo]

Yes, of course.

Well, I can declare the income as “other income” but I may receive a notification to explain the source and it would led back to my company that woul be greatly harmed by that.

 

[Vico]

In Brazil it is the responsibility if company to collect this taxes and it is automatically disconted in the paycheck

Does the company pay in cash or by check and is there document? Is the company legally responsible for paying the taxes?

 

[imo]

imo:

In Brazil it is the responsibility if company to collect this taxes and it is automatically disconted in the paycheck

Does the company pay in cash or by check and is there document? Is the company legally responsible for paying the taxes?

In this case, the company is paying in cash. Yes, the company must collect the taxes before paying the employer. It is disconted at source. So, if they are paying this way, I can’t simply pay anyway the taxes without legally charging the company.

 

[CarmeliteKnight]

Hmm, truly this is a moral conundrum. On one hand, you are technically cheating Ceaser out of his taxes. On the other hand, if you do pay Caesar his due, you will end up causing suffering not only upon yourself but your employer and your coworkers.

One thing that I just thought of that could potentially make winners out of everyone. What you could do is ask your employer to change your employment status. Instead of being his “employee”, you will become an “independent contractor” contracting with your employer.

That way your employer doesn’t have to worry you ratting him out to Caesar. Because you aren’t his employee, he doesn’t have to pay the payroll taxes that come with employing you. That and if someone were to rat out your employer you wouldn’t be held responsible as an accomplice, as you aren’t his employee you’re just a contractor. This will also work out in your benefit in the long run.

Because your status will be changed from “employee” to “contractor” you are able to put your mind at ease and pay Ceaser fully what he is due. And here’s the best part. Because you’re a contractor you can itemize all of your expenses. ALL of your expenses.

Bought some gas on your way to work? That’s deductible from your income. Bought some lunch on your lunch break? That’s deductible from your income. If you itemize all of your expenses you incur, you might actually end up owing less taxes to Caesar then if you were to stay as an employee to your employer. If you end up going this route I highly recommend you talk to an accountant beforehand. As again this is just me talking from an American standpoint. I am not 100% sure how your accounting laws are in Brazil (but my guess would say it is about the same).

 

[Inquiry]

It’s the widespread and established policy that interests me the most here. If the government is aware that under the table payments are common but doesn’t do anything to collect taxes on them, they aren’t really asking for them.

Note that Christ did not give a blanket statement that everything tax related was copacetic. He did say “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” but he also told the tax collectors to “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.”

The way tax collection worked in the Empire was that people would bid on the job of Tax Collector in much the way contractors now bid on construction jobs. Taxes were levied by district, not by person, so it was up to the tax collector to determine what each person in that district owed. Potential tax collectors would underbid each other because they intended to collect more than they were told to and pocket whatever they didn’t turn over to Rome. This is why tax collectors were so reviled; they weren’t just collaborators with Rome, they were using it to rob their own people. It also meant that Rome was taxing people officially and taxing them further unofficially. Christ said the former was to be paid, but told the tax collectors not to collect any of the latter. Rome was only entitled to the money it actually tried to collect.

Does this make a difference here? I don’t know. On the one hand the government is technically asking. On the other hand they aren’t really asking seriously. Is that enough to say that the government is not trying to collect?

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Money under the table is always sin.
Cheating the tax collector means that the rest of us wind up paying more than our fair share of taxes.

 

[signit]

Money under the table is always sin.
Cheating the tax collector means that the rest of us wind up paying more than our fair share of taxes.

It’s sin . . . but who’s responsible?

This happened (in the U.S.) with a friend of mine. The employer said, “The only way I can afford to pay you is under the table.”

Where it’s the employer’s idea, and the employee is given no choice in the matter, I’d say the employer is more responsible.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Since you not have to accept the job, part of it is on you.
Also most people who are paid under the table are being underpaid.

 

[signit]

Since you not have to accept the job, part of it is on you.
Also most people who are paid under the table are being underpaid.

But, if my friend needed the money just to pay rent, and he couldn’t find any other job . . . ?

Not saying he was right, just not sure of his degree of responsibility.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Accepting money under the table is wrong.
The person offering the job and the person accepting the job are both wrong. 50-50
Justification is just that, justification. I need a job, so I will break the law.
Whether it be breaking tax laws or breaking other laws, doing the wrong thing is doing the wrong thing.
The only job I could find was selling dope to others. I did not want to sell dope, but I needed the money to feed my family.

 

[Inquiry]

Money under the table is always sin.
Cheating the tax collector means that the rest of us wind up paying more than our fair share of taxes.

That presumes that there is a set amount of money that the government will collect such that, if you do not pay yours, the rest of us have to pay more. A) That’s not how tax law is written any more. B) If the government decides to punish others more because you do not pay, that is their choice, not yours.

If money under the table is a sin, it is a sin because it requires bearing false witness not because of a fair share theory.

 

[Cruciferi]

I would like to know if there is a (grave?) sin when someone receives its salary under the table, without the due taxes being properly collected.

Please speak with someone who is knowledgeable on your country’s particular Tax Laws.

Generally speaking, employers that pay under the table aren’t reputable. I would try to find a job that documents everything.

 

[Vico]

…
In this case, the company is paying in cash. Yes, the company must collect the taxes before paying the employer. It is discounted at source. So, if they are paying this way, I can’t simply pay anyway the taxes without legally charging the company.

This is the way it is for some types of employment compensation in the United States, also, such as salary. In the USA, independent contractors pay self-employment taxes as do the self-employed, and those are payed by the person.

 

[goout]

Your primary moral responsibility is to provide for your expectant wife and upcoming child.
The payment structure you are participating seems morally unsound, but the primary responsibility for that is with the company who is paying you. If you took courses of action that result in neglect of your family due to loss of a paycheck, that has moral implications as well.
It’s a difficult situation. Provide for your family. (this assumes the work you are doing is not immoral in itself)

 

[Canvas]

It’s sin . . . but who’s responsible?

This happened (in the U.S.) with a friend of mine. The employer said, “The only way I can afford to pay you is under the table.”

Where it’s the employer’s idea, and the employee is given no choice in the matter, I’d say the employer is more responsible.

Here, in the US, the employee does have a choice and they don’t have to mention the employer at all. You just say you are an independent contractor or have self employed income to declare. (I have done this myself when working where the employer does not deduct from checks, like for contracting work.) They can declare themself an independent contractor,(I recommend paying at least quarterly estimated taxes to feds and the state, if the state has an income tax, if you do this, or your tax bill in April will be nasty ), which may require require saving a chunk of each paycheck for federal, state and self employment tax.

The self employment tax is similar to paying both of the employee and employer half of your FICA payroll taxes, but it is actually less.

To calculate SE tax: You take 15.3% of your gross income (both halves of the
the FICA payroll tax on social security and medicare). You take 92.35% of that amount. (Y times .9235) and that is what you pay as self employment tax. Then, you can deduct half that amount from your taxable income on your returns in the next year.

this website figures it out for you:

https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/self-employment-tax-calculator

 

[imo]

signit:

It’s sin . . . but who’s responsible?

This happened (in the U.S.) with a friend of mine. The employer said, “The only way I can afford to pay you is under the table.”

Where it’s the employer’s idea, and the employee is given no choice in the matter, I’d say the employer is more responsible.

Here, the employee does have a choice. (I have done this myself when working where the employer does not deduct from checks, like for contracting work.) They can declare themself an independent contractor,(I recommend paying estimated taxes to feds and the state, if the state has an income tax ), which may require require saving a chunk of each paycheck for federal, state and self employment tax, The self employment tax, which is similar to paying both of the employee and employer half of your FICA payroll taxes, but it is actually less.

To calculate SE tax: You take 15.3% of your gross income (both halves of the
the FICA payroll tax on social security and medicare). You take 92.35% of that amount. (Y times .9235) and that is what you pay as self employment tax. Then, you can deduct half that amount from your taxable income on your returns in the next year.

People, thank yoy very much for your answers. However, here in Brazil we can’t work this way like a private contractor if we have schedule worktime, work inside the company, briefly, if we act like an employee. We are not America, Brazil is country with a very socialist mentality, sunken in widespread corruption. That is why I don’t think we should treat this always pay taxes like a dogma. The world has a lot of realities. Look for example at Cambodia with Pal Pot who killed they say 1/3 of the people, should the people pay taxes in that case? Logically, it seems that the answer ins negative. Obviously it is an extreme, but I just want to say that it is almost stupidity say that we always must pay all the taxes no matter what like if the government was God’s prophet.

 

[Canvas]

People, thank yoy very much for your answers. However, here in Brazil we can’t work this way like a private contractor if we have schedule worktime, work inside the company, briefly, if we act like an employee. We are not America, Brazil is country

I did not mean that advice to you, specifically. I do not know what the Brazilian tax laws are. These was US specific tax advice. I was explaining to another poster how one could pay taxes on work done where the employer pays you in a non-payroll fashion in the United States. Here, if you make more than a few hundred or so in doing “odd jobs” or “contracting work” or if you are self employed, this is what you are supposed to do.

 

[CarmeliteKnight]

Remember, people like Pol Pot got into power because the people chose for him to be in power. Just like Hitler and Lenin before him. You are under no obligation to live in a nation you disagree with. Vote with your feet and immigrate (legally) to a country that won’t try to cheat you. You are always welcome to move to America (but, tbh, Uncle Sam will still try to cheat you one way or another).

Remember, even in the Roman persecutions, Christians were still expected to pay what they owe to Rome. Scripture even calls Ceaser God’s servent (see Romans 13).

The only other thing that I could think of would be for you to do the right thing and report the income. Your boss will definitely get mad (as he probably get audited) but if he tries to fire you, you could always sue him for retaliation. Im sure the government will be more than sympathetic twords you and rule in your favor (again depending on Brazil’s laws)

Best thing to do would be to find a new employer, tbh.